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Post subject:
 Posted: May 07, 2006 - 03:28 PM
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Joined: Feb 12, 2003
Posts: 1146
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Doubleskulls wrote: gken1 wrote: Personally I like tournies that let you play OT so there are less ties. As long as there's time they should let'em play I think.
 But then all the tables who finish on time have to wait around for half an hour (or more since close games tend to take longer) twiddling their thumbs. So from an organisers POV I don't see how you'd get that to work and keep everyone happy.
What I usually do is schedule 2 hours for each round and 1 hour for a break. Most games finish up just past the two hour mark and those who play long into their break simply don't get a break. After 3 hours even the slowest of players have no excuses left why their games havn't yet been completed.
For team events it's a little different. The scoring system gives a value and meaning to a tied score. Indigo and I tossed the idea back and forth about allowing OT for team events but in the end we decided that since there was a value in a tie result that we wouldn't allow overtime. |
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Brian St.James
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MightyQ |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 07, 2006 - 09:05 PM
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Joined: Jul 16, 2004
Posts: 40
Status: Offline
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KarlLagerbottom wrote:
1. Lizards are more bashy than Skaven, so given that the CAS differential through 4 games was so signifigant, maybe that demonstrates that one coach is better than the other. (However slight the difference might be.) A 1 or 2 CAS difference over four games might be irrelevant...but 5?
Lizards maybe more bashy but it's casualties are based on the opponent you face, Lizards had to face to av9 teams while the skaven played more av7's & av8's... he will most likely get more casualties as his rolls dont have to be so high...
I think thats what really hurt the Orc team, has to play against 3 av9 teams and 1 av8..
KarlLagerbottom wrote:
I am still mostly asleep at this point so I am not sure if I am making my points here, so let me just leave off by saying...tourney rankings should not just be left to wins and losses alone. There are too many times where someone can play very well and lose strictly because of a kick off even or just dice in general. A person's play over a stretch of time and considering multiple facets when teams/coaches are being ranked.
It is a game of dice and the events you listed are part of the game... That's why I was a bit upset games weren't allowed to be completed as it comes down to the last turn of the game sometimes...
Each game is individual... Looking at the results seeing a team won 3-2, some might say, anyone can win by one... But knowing the game where the person was down 0-2 or 1-2 and won on turn 8 3-2 is totally different...
I have watched hundreds of game and seen some amzing things where you would have thought one team definitely lost and some how wins...
I had a game with my amazons where I was losing 0-2 at half and kicking to my opponent, figuring as things were going, I was going to be down 0-3, but show how my Amazons scored quickly on a failed pickup and on turn 8 someone got the ball dodging through numberous tacklezones and picking the ball up in 2 tacklezones, dodging away and scoring with 2 gfi's... You do some amazing desperate things when you are losing... I coach each game different depending on my opponent, race, score, etc... And as far as I know, you cant coach casualties... I apologized to my Amazons for losing faith in them  |
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Paul |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 07, 2006 - 11:00 PM
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Joined: Feb 18, 2005
Canada
Posts: 422
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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| [quote="MightyQ"] KarlLagerbottom wrote:
Lizards maybe more bashy but it's casualties are based on the opponent you face, Lizards had to face to av9 teams while the skaven played more av7's & av8's... he will most likely get more casualties as his rolls dont have to be so high...
I think thats what really hurt the Orc team, has to play against 3 av9 teams and 1 av8..
Actually, you're wrong there. If you go up against AV 7 Elfs you would think you get a good shot at most cas, and you probably should, but your opponents will be dodging away that you will only get 1 hit a turn. If you go up against other bashy teams, they'll be more likly to stand there and fight. With my Dwarfs, I know that I've gotten more Cas bonuses for the games against other Dwarfs, Orcs and Choas.
Quote:
It is a game of dice and the events you listed are part of the game... That's why I was a bit upset games weren't allowed to be completed as it comes down to the last turn of the game sometimes...
Well, its a tournament, you all know that you have a time limit going in, and not being able to finish the game should be the penalty you pay for not playing fast enough. If its close finish out the turn. Hell, I'd even give an opponent a win if it was clear he was going to score and I couldn't stop him. |
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MightyQ |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 07, 2006 - 11:26 PM
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Joined: Jul 16, 2004
Posts: 40
Status: Offline
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Paul wrote:
Well, its a tournament, you all know that you have a time limit going in, and not being able to finish the game should be the penalty you pay for not playing fast enough. If its close finish out the turn. Hell, I'd even give an opponent a win if it was clear he was going to score and I couldn't stop him.
Well speed of play is based on both opponents and the failure of a turn helps speed things up... There were circumstances that changed the game play on day 2 from day 1 where games were finished in breaks... But how do you try to move your opponent along faster without sounding like a pain ??? I am not the fastest person and some turns you really have to think things out, especially with my 4 frenzy guys, trying to figue out where they will or have to go incase they dont knock the opponent over on the first block and might end up getting 2 db their choice...
Online I am down to an hour a game, stunty games are like 30-50 mintues... Things are much easier to see online...
There are so many things in real life games that adds extra time and causes them to go a bit slower... Cracked dice, no matter where you roll, somehow they find the only spot to end up cracked... Moving your players and turning them one way, then turning them back either at the end of your turn or begining of your next turn... Kickoff results, Blitz, a whole extra turn... If the 4 mintue rule isnt in affect and without bringing a chess clock of some sort, you shouldnt be penalized for not completing a turned based game in a shorter amount (2 hours) of time then it would if the 4 minute time limit was in effect (2 hours 8 minutes)...
And I am asking because I am not sure, does the 4 minute time limit count setting for up kickoffs ??? |
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SolarFlare |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 08, 2006 - 07:17 AM
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Joined: Nov 24, 2004
Posts: 199
Status: Offline
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Doubleskulls wrote:
One thing you need to have is a degree of certainty that a player who wins all their games will win the tournament.
I agree with this. As a solution, several tournaments (e.g., GenConBowl, Chaos Cup, and ZlurpeeBowl) have switched to having the final table be a "first place match."
Outside of that, though, I really don't see what the fuss is about. It really does not make a difference to me if I finish in 10th or 11th place at a tournament because somebody may have had way more scores or casualties and his record is 2-0-3 and mine is 3-0-2. I guess 3rd or 4th could make a difference in "prizes." That's usually a blister pack or maybe something like that. I guess that's a risk I'm willing to take...
For the wooden spoon, hopefully the tournament director will recognize the all-loss record and reward accordingly. Again, though, I'm not going to get upset if I don't get a wooden spoon that I "deserve." (Unless, of course, the TO is a friend, and I just feel like giving him grief for my own amusement.) |
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Jonny_P |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 08, 2006 - 08:29 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 899
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
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In my rules for the Underworld Cup, I have a clause added that if you go undefeated and no one else does, you are declared the Champion regardless of tournament points.
Also I do agree that Ties should be brought down in points. A tie is not even close to a Win, even just 1-0 win (Which is what Chaos and Dwarves and the like are known for). "Playing for the tie" should not be heavily rewarded, IMO. TD and Casualty bonus is a nice however to have another variable in the mix for tourney points. As long as you know that going in, you can play games with those bonuses in mind. |
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Uthrac |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 08, 2006 - 09:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 09, 2006
Posts: 16
Status: Offline
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A few more thoughts . . .
(1) In real sports, there is a bit of luck too. Sure, they don't roll dice, but dice in Bloodbowl are used to simulate probabilities. Even the greatest sports team can lose a "close call" by the ref. or just be inches away from a catch/first down/great play. There's a Nike commercial out now: "If things happened they way they were supposed to [if the "better player/coach" always won], there would be no need to play the game." Well, the best coach in the room doesn't always win. And the "best coach" doesn't have the right to win . . .  That's why we play. The best/luckiest team, in any sport, on that particular day, takes home the win.
(This is why I don't support the "Recover from one bad game" argument. Everyone has a bad game once in a while, that's the nature of any competition!)
(2) As far as the Lizardmen team goes, they have stuntly players as well, a little easier (with bad luck) to give up some casualties. Generally speaking, as previously noted, it's difficult to "coach" casualties. [Someone noted that elves will dodge away, so it's the elf team that starts his first dodge away with double 1's who will give up casualties to that particular opponent.] Also, the ability to inflict casualties, as previously noted, depends more on the luck of the draw for opponents faced than on "coaching ability." Personal opionion: Casualties are their own reward, and should not be part of the scoring.
(3) For the time discussion, I've run tournaments where, after the first hour, I've put a clock on games not through the first half. This speeds up the slower players - - and knowing that the clock is coming if the game is too slow is a motivator to keep things moving! (This is Bloodbowl, and not chess, after all!)
(4) Finally, the final standings (other than the top) matter little, but at the end of the day, I still believe that W/L percentage, followed by "strength of schedule" is the best measure of the "daily champion." Side prizes/certificates for Most Casualties, Most Deaths, Most TDs, Most Double Skulls/Ones rolled, Painting, Sportsmanship, etc. are fine, but in the end of the day, the best record should win. IMO, in the case of a tied record, head-to-head, margin of victory, games against common opponents, and strength of schedule are better measures than casualties caused.
Final thought - - My team is up 3-0 late in the second half, and I have the ball in position to score. Under the tournament scoring system, I really don't want to score, b/c then I must set up for a kickoff and give my oppenent 3 casulaty shots against my team! 8O
Also, any thoughts on a shut-out bonus? (Not that it works in my system, but in the current system, if you're handing out bonuses, why not "perfect defense?")
~Uthrac
PS: Glad to see everyone supporting a constructive discussion on this topic! |
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 08, 2006 - 08:23 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
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CyberHare wrote: What I usually do is schedule 2 hours for each round and 1 hour for a break. Most games finish up just past the two hour mark and those who play long into their break simply don't get a break. After 3 hours even the slowest of players have no excuses left why their games havn't yet been completed.
I guess you are playing at bigger conventions? if you are then you don't need to worry as much about entertaining those who've already finished. At standalone BB tournaments an hour break between every round is really excessive IMO. |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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Paul |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 08, 2006 - 08:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 18, 2005
Canada
Posts: 422
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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Doubleskulls wrote: CyberHare wrote: What I usually do is schedule 2 hours for each round and 1 hour for a break. Most games finish up just past the two hour mark and those who play long into their break simply don't get a break. After 3 hours even the slowest of players have no excuses left why their games havn't yet been completed.
I guess you are playing at bigger conventions? if you are then you don't need to worry as much about entertaining those who've already finished. At standalone BB tournaments an hour break between every round is really excessive IMO.
Not when there is a bar next door to the tournament |
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Clan_Skaven |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 08, 2006 - 08:30 PM
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Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Niagara Falls ON, Canada
Posts: 2604
Location: Niagara Falls ON, Canada
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Paul wrote: Doubleskulls wrote: CyberHare wrote: What I usually do is schedule 2 hours for each round and 1 hour for a break. Most games finish up just past the two hour mark and those who play long into their break simply don't get a break. After 3 hours even the slowest of players have no excuses left why their games havn't yet been completed.
I guess you are playing at bigger conventions? if you are then you don't need to worry as much about entertaining those who've already finished. At standalone BB tournaments an hour break between every round is really excessive IMO.
Not when there is a bar next door to the tournament
Wow Paul & I agree? Well thats one thing I knew Paul was good at & that was swillin beer ......
GO BEER (ps getting drunk again)
Rod |
_________________
"2006 SPIKE Champion!"
"Death-Bowl IV & V, Most Casualties!, Death-Bowl VI Best Team!"
"2008 Dagger Bowl Champion"
Host of the Warpstone Cup, Q'ermitt Bowl & the Hope Bowl
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MightyQ |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 08, 2006 - 08:34 PM
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Joined: Jul 16, 2004
Posts: 40
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| Well if you two have to play against each other, see if they will let you set up in the bar !!! |
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 09, 2006 - 03:55 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
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Location: Kent, UK
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Paul wrote: Not when there is a bar next door to the tournament
Better yet, a tournament in a pub! Then you don't need to break at all |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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Post subject:
Posted: May 09, 2006 - 04:22 AM
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Joined: Feb 12, 2003
Posts: 1146
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Doubleskulls wrote: Better yet, a tournament in a pub! Then you don't need to break at all
Ahh the holy grail of Blood Bowl. Someday I'll find a pub over here that'll allow a bunch of geeks to take over the place for the weekend. No such luck to date though  |
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Brian St.James
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Bevan |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 09, 2006 - 04:30 AM
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Joined: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 194
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There was an interesting result at Leviathan (15 coaches, 6 rounds) where the 3rd placed team won only 2 matches. The scoring was the same as at Cancon mentioned previously with bonuses for +2TD wins and for winning casualties.
(Win = 4, draw = 3, loss = 2, +1 for a 2TD win, -1 for a 2TD loss and 1 for the casualty winner, 0.5 each if drawn)
The top 8 teams were
Pts W D L Race
27.0 4 2 0 Dwarf
26.0 4 0 1 Dark Elf
25.0 2 3 1 Ogre
24.5 3 2 1 Wood Elf
23.0 4 1 1 Human
22.0 4 0 2 Lizardmen
21.5 3 2 1 High Elf
21.5 3 0 3 Wood Elf
The Ogres (3rd) picked up a casualty bonus in every round and had 3 draws, finishing ahead of several teams with better Win+Draw results. The high scoring Wood Elves in 4th place (3 wins + 2 Draws) were well ahead of two teams with 4 wins.
Doubleskulls had the same number of points as me. We both had 3 wins but his 2 draws and a loss should have beaten my 3 losses, except that all my wins were by 2TDs or more.  |
Last edited by Bevan on May 10, 2006 - 03:39 AM; edited 1 time in total
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MightyQ |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 09, 2006 - 08:26 AM
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Joined: Jul 16, 2004
Posts: 40
Status: Offline
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| 6 Rounds, why do teams have different amount of games played, 4 ,5 & 6... |
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