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Mordredd |
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Post subject: Team treasury adding to team rating
 Posted: May 23, 2003 - 05:09 AM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
England
Posts: 728
Location: England
Status: Offline
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In the days of the special play cards the amount of money that a team had in it's treasury could be used to effect the game, most notably through buying a cheap reroll through extra training. Now it seems to have no effect except to boost team rating. As the team treasury has no effect on a teams ability to play the game should it still contribute to the handicap?
I propose that the team treasury should no longer be added to the team rating, and that the full value of freebooters should be added to the team rating before calculating the handicap (e.g. +18 for a 180,000 vampire lord). |
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Agentrock |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 23, 2003 - 07:18 AM
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Joined: Mar 21, 2003
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| I voted to keep the system the way it is. Even though you do not get the large amounts of money from games anymore (due to special cards no longer being used) the amount of money in the treasury still highlight's the team's buying power to purchase something...whether it be rerolls, assistant coaches, cheer leaders, and most importantly players. |
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jmccubbin |
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Post subject: Re: Team treasury adding to team rating
Posted: May 23, 2003 - 07:33 AM
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Joined: Mar 12, 2003
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Mordredd wrote: In the days of the special play cards the amount of money that a team had in it's treasury could be used to effect the game, most notably through buying a cheap reroll through extra training. Now it seems to have no effect except to boost team rating. As the team treasury has no effect on a teams ability to play the game should it still contribute to the handicap?
Not true. some games the handicap rolls require money for players to still play. If I got hit with that roll, then my treasury pulls me through. If I don't have the money, then I loose players for the game. |
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject: Re: Team treasury adding to team rating
Posted: May 23, 2003 - 07:52 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 1562
Status: Offline
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Mordredd wrote: Now it seems to have no effect except to boost team rating. As the team treasury has no effect on a teams ability to play the game should it still contribute to the handicap?
Really ... huh ...
You can freeboot wizards before a game starts.
You can freeboot players before a game starts.
You can freeboot Stars before a game starts.
Annual 2003 added the ability to buy Secret Weapons before the game starts.
Seems to me like your treasury can very much still affect a game and thus should still be part of the Team Rating.
By the way also in the works that I've seen are Dirty Tricks and Magic Items that you could buy before the game starts. Don't know if they will become experimental ... but I've seen them.
No Gold should definitely be part of TR.
Galak |
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Indigo |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 23, 2003 - 10:33 AM
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Da Warboss
Joined: Feb 12, 2003
England
Posts: 2168
Location: England
Status: Offline
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| it's like saying the vast fortune sitting behind manchester united has no impact at all on their progress in the league & europe - simply not true |
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NAF #60
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 23, 2003 - 11:17 AM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
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Posts: 728
Location: England
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"Really ... huh ...
You can freeboot wizards before a game starts.
You can freeboot players before a game starts.
You can freeboot Stars before a game starts.
Annual 2003 added the ability to buy Secret Weapons before the game starts."
Sorry Galak, but at the risk of sounding rude please try to read the posts.   In my proposal FREEBOOTERS were accounted for after you paid for them by adding their full value to the TR for the purposes of calculating the handicap. This would include ALL players that you freeboot AND secret weapons. This, mathematically, better represents a teams true ability on the field than the current system, which undervalues the presence of freebooters.
I have not seen the Dirty Tricks and Magic items that you speak of but it seems to me that they can probably be accounted for at the same time. Besides if you choose not to use them, as I know many players will, then you are being penalised for being rich.
There is one result on the handicap table, appearance fee, which causes you to pay or not play one player. It is a lighter version of it wasn't me! where the most you have to pay is 30,000. Not really a good enough argument for maintaining the status quo.
The players that will be replaced, and the new rerolls that will be bought do not effect play in the current game. They will in the next one, where they will already be taken account of in the TR on the team sheet at the start of the pre match sequence.
With Man U the money is represented on the field by the best players that money can buy. In BB the money in the treasury is not represented on the field, which was my whole point in the first place. BB, as you may have noticed, does not entirely work like real life. |
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Indigo |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 23, 2003 - 11:27 AM
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Da Warboss
Joined: Feb 12, 2003
England
Posts: 2168
Location: England
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two teams, one very rich the other with nothing. both have identical players.
if both teams have a player killed, then obviously the richer one is in a better position to replace him than the other, and therefore a stronger team. Weaker teams need a handicap system to stay remotely competitive... (trust me I've played leagues with no cards/handicap table containing teams of TR 290 vs 100 - aint pretty).
In a league, a team's performance is not measured by it's players alone, but also it's re-rolls and staff. Anything that has a bearing on how a team performs in a league should impact the TR.
Undead teams typically get stacks of cash as they dont need to replace players very often. If they DIDNT count cash towards TR then they would be at a huge handicap advantage - their players are good but their team rating would be low.
Try a league where TR is not affected by cash and you will see certain teams simply do unfairly better than others. |
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NAF #60
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Indigo |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 23, 2003 - 11:29 AM
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Da Warboss
Joined: Feb 12, 2003
England
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This isn't to say, however, that the system shouldnt be tweaked and your suggestion invalid. How about not counting any cash above 100k, or dividing the total cash by 2 and rounding down - I've never tested these alternatives though.
I'm firmly of the opinion "If it ain't broke..." and IMO this isn't broke |
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NAF #60
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 23, 2003 - 12:24 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Posts: 1562
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Mordredd wrote: Sorry Galak, but at the risk of sounding rude please try to read the posts. :evil.
I read your post ... just completely disagree with your recommended changes. House rules ... wonderful ... official ... no way. No need for the evil faces.
Cash can be used on several things before a game now, and while I understand that your recommended change tries to account for those things. Your system leaves out something Deathwing explained very well a long time ago.
Cash represents unspent potential. Should a good team be allowed to have less handicaps against them for matches during the regular season because they are saving all their money for Stars and Wizards for the playoffs. DW argued "heck no" ... and I 100% agree. Not spending your cash is a coaching decision just as valid as buying a reroll or freebooting to reduce TR. A coach should not be allowed to soften his TR by hording cash. IN MY OPINION, this allows some very beardy regular season tactics that I just could not approve of.
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Dave |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 24, 2003 - 02:33 AM
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da Veiz-Prez
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 895
Location: Netherlands
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| I agtree there galak, can be very beardy |
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First ever poster on the NAF site, Former Prez' proverbial pain in the bum and NTO-Netherlands
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 24, 2003 - 02:04 PM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
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Posts: 728
Location: England
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Two identical teams, one rich one poor, have an identical chance of winning and the TR should indicate this. If one cannot recover from losses then it's strength, and it's indicator of strength (TR) will be reduced. If they have the same chance of winning why should one receive a handicap bonus because they are less likely to recover from bad luck?
True, a teams performance is not measured by it's players alone, however all these other factors have an 'on the pitch' effect at some time during the game and their relative value is added to the TR. Treasury only affects the team before and after the match, not during.
And playing without any sort of handicap system is just wrong.
Yes Undead teams, like mine, do end up with stacks of cash in the long run. This is mostly because once you have a full roster and 8 rerolls there is not much to spend it on except support staff and replacements. No teams in my league currently make use of any star players.
The last 2 seasons of my current league tried this house rule, and no team seemed to be unfairly penalised by it. |
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 24, 2003 - 02:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
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Location: England
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Galak, your post came across, to me at least, as glib and patronising, and not a specific response to what I said. Hence the angry faces. If you'd made your second post first that would have been a lot better.
I have not heard Deathwing make that explanation, but I don't think it is a good one. BB is the only GW 'campaign type' game to do this. Treasury is not added to ratings in Necromunder or Mordheim for the simple reason that it doesn't affect the game at hand.
As for saving your cash, that's a very risky strategy. Other teams will be spending theirs on rerolls, more position players, reserves etc. whilst your team stays stagnant. And if you did manage to make it past these stronger teams to the final and spent it all on freebooters then you may indeed win easily, but your team will be substantially weaker than everyone else's next season. I just can't see how that is unacceptable beardiness.
My experience of teams that save their cash is that they don't make it. I have in the past, however, seen teams giving away a handicap due to their treasury whilst not being able to spend it. |
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 24, 2003 - 04:31 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Mordredd wrote: And if you did manage to make it past these stronger teams to the final and spent it all on freebooters then you may indeed win easily, but your team will be substantially weaker than everyone else's next season. I just can't see how that is unacceptable beardiness.
Because I got 150,000 gold for winning the league championship plus the gate was FF with +2 to each of the dice for both teams for finals match. The Gold I win from winning or taking 2nd in the finals assures that I'm not substantially weaker.
Quote: I have in the past, however, seen teams giving away a handicap due to their treasury whilst not being able to spend it.
There is no such creature. Rerolls, freebooters, and wizards are all cash dumps. So I don't agree with this point.
And if I sounded glib, Mordredd, I apologize. This is one of those topics that I've seen brought up some many times over the last 6 years on the internet boards that I responded to quickly and curtly ... sorry. Deathwing got in trouble for the same thing on TBB once leading to the classic quote about him and newbies. So sorry.
The bottom line is that the BBRC has said they agree with Deathwing's position that allowing hording treasury to reduce TR in the present and having it available to spend on the playoffs is not a good change for the BB rules. Gold has a lot of impact in BB and the powers that be have agreed that it should be factored into TR for every game. If you don't like it ... as I said, I think if your league agrees its a fine house rule to not count it. You are just not going to convince me or the rule makers that gold doesn't matter.
Galak |
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Mestari |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 26, 2003 - 12:58 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Earlier on we used to have two TR's for every team: the real TR with everything factored in and the effective TR, which was the TR with the treasury and missing players subtracted.
The effective TR was used for calculating handicap and determining which team was expected to win, while the real TR was used when teams rolled for money.
That's a quite functional system especially if you live in a aggressive league: badly beaten up teams are not giving handicap if they have 5 players missing the game etc. Sure it allows hoarding up money, but you could always reduce only missing players from the effective TR if you wish. |
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Teemu Tokola aka Mestari
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Mestari |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 26, 2003 - 01:15 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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| However, I must add, we no longer use that. The reason is mostly the fact that we want to be LRB 2.0 compliant. It's an excellent and well-thought out ruleset (well, maybe Piling on isn't so well-thought out but mostly). |
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Teemu Tokola aka Mestari
Member #52
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