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NonioOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 28, 2011 - 04:02 AM



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LBN must play...
 
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PakoOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Apr 04, 2011 - 03:43 AM



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Thank you all guys. It seems that will not be an option for us. Anycase, appreciatte your support.

We decided to move as a team. This is our spirit. So hope the individuals get all the players whithout us... Wink
 
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Tiamo69Offline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Apr 06, 2011 - 06:21 AM



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      Pako wrote:
Thank you all guys. It seems that will not be an option for us. Anycase, appreciatte your support.

We decided to move as a team. This is our spirit. So hope the individuals get all the players whithout us... Wink


i've just read this thread today & am surprised, considering how passionate the players concerned were over attending, that it took until March the 14th before anyone even mentioned the 'Individual Teams'.

I registered as an Individual back in December & i think i was the 12th registration. Being a pessimist, I've watched the World Cup II thread avidly since then, fully expecting to NOT make the cut...

But i am going & at least a 1/3 of the members of these 2 teams have been allocated their slots since this grievance was first vented!

i don't know the individuals concerned & can understand you wanting to play as a team...

however, if you really wanted to attend WCII you could all have expressed interest as individuals & ended up with practically a full team this way...

lots of individual applicants have dropped out, as they took over spare slots that became vacant in teams which were successful & others have come forward to fill their slots.

Don't get me wrong, i think the Individual Teams should be Individual Teams & not hijacked by others but you haven't actually been denied the opportunity of playing in the WCII which seems to be your argument.

You could have played as Individuals (& potentially together).
You've only been denied playing WCII as a Team.
 
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Tiamo69Offline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Apr 06, 2011 - 06:53 AM



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Observations on this whole thread:

Numbers:

i think 400 was a very realistic target considering the factors...

1) WCI was actually undersubscribed

2) At time of planning, there was a little thing going around the world called a 'Global Recession', with many people not knowing if they'd have work within a month, let alone whether or not they could afford to attend a BB tournament in 12-18 months time!

3) when booking any event, the first thing you need to estimate is numbers & the higher your numbers estimation is, the earlier you have to book to (a) secure a venue & (b) potentially benefit from any negotiated discounts.

How many tournaments are run & turn out to be under subscribed or, have the right numbers but don't receive payment of the majority of particpants until the week before or sometimes 'on the day'...

The NAF certainly can't run a WC this way, not unless we want to see them bankrupt themselves!


the fact that the bid process was voted on by experienced organisers from all over the world & that neither the President nor the Countries concerned were allowed an active part in this process, proves that NAF, as an organisation, treated this whole process seriously & wanted the final decision to be as objective as possible.

I can certainly understand the passion behind some of the points raised here but you have to try & be objective & detach your personal feelings, when looking at the big picture.


NAF bids went out to run a 400-odd WC tournament & Amsterdam were the successful bidders.

I think the fact that the Organisers have surpassed their remit by actually organising a 480 player tournament should be applauded, not criticised!

As with everything in life, there are winners & losers, the main thing is that we learn & move on; hopefully WCIII will see around 600 people travelling to it & we'll see more teams come from further away, with new countries included too.

These new countries / teams / players will end up pushing some of the existing 'veteran' teams / players out of WCIII & so, we'll have disgruntled players angrily criticising the WCIII committee in the future...

But, this is is the 'right way' to do things...

we need to bring New Blood into the game, we need new Coaches to start up new leagues. My own small club in Burton on Trent has gone from sending 1 individual member to the BB GT to sending 8 Coaches to the NAF Champs in one year!

Euro Bowl by it's rules / objectives etc is slighlty exclusive & almost by invite only. My only chance of ever making an appearance at Euro Bowl is if 'Team Wales' do go & i get into their team, by way of some 'dodgy' 3rd-4th generation Welsh heritage! However, the Welsh players are getting more organised, so that's highly unlikely too...

I wanted to play at WCII ever since i 1st heard about WCI, 3-4 years ago, when i was rediscovering Blood Bowl after a 10+ year exile. The fact that i'm going proves the system does work.

My only criticism regarding the whole team selection is checks should have been made to ensure that Team Members were 'paid up' members of NAF before December 2010 (at the latest)...

From seeing comments in the World Cup threads, i'd place a safe wager on the fact that some WCII participants have only 'physically' joined the NAF (or renewed their membership) after the 1st of December 2010...???

If correct, then that is something that needs to be changed before WCIII!
 
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Tiamo69Offline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Apr 06, 2011 - 06:58 AM



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one last little observation...

how come you claim to be an active NAF member & yet, only ever make 5 posts on the Official NAF Forum since 2005...

with your 5th post being such an extended outburst against the way the WCII has been organised...?

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is it safe to assume then, that the originator of this thread didn't participate in the pre decision Forum discussions on this very subject...?
 
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smeborgOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Apr 06, 2011 - 05:50 PM



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I support the process that has been gone through by the NAF as being thorough, fair and well managed. I share the pain of those who have not secured tickets (but I regard my own ticket as a bonus rather than a right). As has been pointed out by others, the alternative to having too few places is financial risk. A couple of suggestions:

(For WC2 and WC3): Have a clear mechanism so that teams and individuals that have not secured a ticket can replace dropouts (i.e. a ranking order for those in the queue, perhaps simply first come first served) . Reward dropouts (teams and individuals) who tell the NAF before the tournament itself. Time consuming, I know, but possible if one organiser is dedicated to this function, I suggest.

(For WC3): Financial risk is tricky for unincorporated associations such as the NAF. Accordingly, consider having a small number of wealthier NAF members underwrite limited amounts of risk on a volunteer basis (e.g. 5,000 euros each). This might help bid for a space large enough to accommodate all comers (at no risk to the NAF, just to those members). I would be prepared to do this myself, knowing that I might not see the money again.

Hope that helps.
 
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PakoOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 23, 2011 - 07:29 AM



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Hello all.

Just to note that today, five months before NAF WC II some (if not, many) teams here in Spain had at least one member out WC due to different reasons.

I don't know the numbers, I am just waiting for the final member composition of the spanish (and other) teams to make a comparsion between WCI and II. In terms of proportion, BTW.

My sense is that after a successful NAF WCI many people wanted to come, no matter how. This was a reason (IMO) to add of the final oversubscription.

Again, NAF WC organizers did not care about to not adulterate this process (in which people who was not pre-registered is entering now when other pre-registered players are still out). This is another issue to add to a general lack of organization and prevision.

For example:

Giving to the teams the rule that they cannot change more than one registered player. Those teams being pushed down in the registration list. This would make people just registering like crazy if they were making a real team or not, in fact reducing the oversuscription and (probably) giving us the chance to enter in the WCII. To date, I have notice of at least 5 spanish players offering their place.

Second. Giving the teams the rule that any missing player should be reported to organization, giving the organizers the chance to refill teams or join incomplete teams to free slots for teams in the waiting list.

As mentioned above, LBN team wants to play as a team. We join in 1999 and we played many tourneys together. It is simply unfair that people organized teams two weeks before pre-registration (some of them finally with players not coming).

That's why we did not enter in these bussiness. But think about if we started to move along spanish teams maybe we could have a entire team slot for us finally.

It is a pitty that lack of WCII organization make this more difficult. As I mentioned before, probably organizers are very nice people, and there is no doubt that they try to solve problems and improve the WC. But it is also true that many things were simply forget. Things that should be considered when you are organizing the NAF WC. Specially taking into account the massive attendance.

There was no control from the NAF statement other than Amsterdam is a nice place, and 400 people space; nor a clear project from NAF organization. This is just the last mistake (one that was noted before, citations are aviable if you want). I told you that LBN could pre-register 6 different teams no matter the players to improve our chances to go in. This was just an overestimation but, for sure, many teams included "not-so-sure-to-come" players just to fill the team and enter in the lottery.

Instead of pay attention to suggestions, criticisms or comments, you just decided to forget about us because our position was not simply "well done, you handsome guys".

Data is there. Let's see how many of the players pre-registered finally play, and the comparsion with WCI in %. And tell me that it shouldn't be improve.
 
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GrumbledookOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 23, 2011 - 08:55 AM



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I don't think anyone is saying things can't have been better or that there is nothing to improve. It is a shame some people are missing out and its clear some things need looking at for the next one if it happens.

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PakoOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 23, 2011 - 09:32 AM



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The real shame it that things like this were pointed out in a time in that the organization or NAF could fixed it. No one spent five minutes thinking about it suitability... or worse, someone spent those five minutes and decide this was not a problem. I guess it is. But let the time pass through and consider it.

My personal shame is to not have NAF WC II due to things that could be done in the right way if people in charge took some extra time to consider it. Alternatively, to pay attention on us.

I told them. Others told them. That's the shame. And it happened more than once this WC...

I am not buried. As I said, we had the chance to fill some teams but definetly it will turn NAF WC in a joke for us, playing sepparately in 4-5 teams that did not take the responsability to fill their roster properly, just thinking in a place for WC and thinking about later.

I am not angry, or buried. Just tired about all this stuff. Disappointed, very disappointed with this way to do things.

On the other hand, a team maintained over 10 years is out, or forced to be hired in pieces by the people that let us out... :S
 
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GrumbledookOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 23, 2011 - 11:46 AM



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have you asked these other teams if they will swap around so you can be on one team? I suspect they may also be teams of players that have known each other for a long time though

I'm sympathetic to what's happened though I don't recall reading much about warnings before the location was announced and the capacity limits. The only time this stuff was mentioned was after it had been picked and then we saw the sheer number of ppl who put their names forward to go.

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Darkson
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 23, 2011 - 02:43 PM



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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByUOFV5TusE

Yeah, I'm sure that all those people that signed up new EXACTLY what the future held for them 12 months down the line. Redundancy, new children/families, emergencies, etc, etc, etc. No, of course it was none of these things, it was all just a conspiracy to keep you and LBN out.

Stop talking such utter shite.

People have to drop out - it happens. It happens at normal tourneys, it happens at the NAFC, it happened at WCI, and everyone knew it was going to happen at WCII. Trying to use it as yet another to blame the organisers for is, frankly, another sign of your bitterness.

Get over yourself, and if you think you can do it better, stop using the time to continue your whining, and get a bid sorted for 2015 for 1000+ people.

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#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
 
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longfangOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 23, 2011 - 03:48 PM



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She's hot! Or was hot!

Pako, have you mailed the organisers, spoken with the Spanish NTO. I don't think your doing yourself any favour by pursuing this on forum and you might actually get issues resolved if you go with private mail.
 
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PakoOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 02:02 AM



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I am just pointing out organization failures. This is my personal opinion and could be taken intyo account or not. But these issues should be at least consider.

Yuo're right, these considerations should be done after venue publication and oversubscription. IMO organization failed again not assuring that people preregistered could come before others filling teams. You could do it in response to oversuscription. Action, and re-action. To assure fairness.

And not. Here in Sapin many of these teams asked us to fill free slots. The thing is maybe those teams did extra effort to build a 100% commited team if organization penalised the team member changes. Maybe instead of 14 spanish teams we had 13 and we all come to A'dam.

Longfang. After NAF and organization ignore in practice all my suggestions and posts (some of them finally demonstrated to be usefull) my only way to do is post it public to get the community the chance to think about, and support this (or not) but at least consider it. I don't pretend to change all NAF points of view nor the rules of NAF WC. But certainly there are some fields to improve and discuss or NAF WCIII will have the same problems but worse than WC II.

I guess the idea to penalise teams that pre-suscribed with any player no matter who to get place, and afterwards built the team is simply fair.
 
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Darkson
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 08:22 AM



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      Pako wrote:
I guess the idea to penalise teams that pre-suscribed with any player no matter who to get place, and afterwards built the team is simply fair.

No, it's BS.

So you want to penalise teams that have players drop out? Your wife/other half finds she's expecting around that date, and decides she really doesn't want you hundreds of miles away. You, and a couple of team-mates get made redundant and have to drop out (given the state of the Spanish economy, a possibility...). God forbid, but your partner dies, and you're left bringing up the kids alone.

And you want to punish people for that?

Again, what utter shite.

Let's have a round of applause for the "wah, wah, wah, me, me, me" generation.

_________________
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#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
 
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PakoOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 09:09 AM



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Get it simple:

1- One drop out is assumed to be possible. More than one? We are talking of the 33% of your team...

2- If your team will be penalised, and your wife is pregnant(and you know it at least 7 months before), just think twice before join a tourney in that important date. As probably you should do without the penalization.

3- If someone in your family dies, probably you will not care about BB.

Let's go Darkson:

      Quote:
Get over yourself, and if you think you can do it better, stop using the time to continue your whining, and get a bid sorted for 2015 for 1000+ people


It means that if your bank is not doing things properly in your oppinion, you simply run a new bank by yourself.

If you dislike the work of the people who is reforming your house, you just do yourself, no matter if you should change the roof, the electric stuff or whatever.

Isn't it?

My god. Grow up, man. What a sucking argument.
 
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