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Post subject:
 Posted: Jun 27, 2011 - 10:31 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2696
Location: Undisclosed
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Pako wrote: 2- If your team will be penalised, and your wife is pregnant(and you know it at least 7 months before), just think twice before join a tourney in that important date. As probably you should do without the penalization.
And that shows you're not even thinking it through. The tourney is November next year - that means that people can still drop out for pregnancy, jobs, deaths etc, etc etc, and they've had 6 months (or so) for these things to effect them already.
Can you honestly say you know what life is going to throw at you for the next 16 months? Since I signed up, and after booking the time off work, I've unexpectedly changed job, and almost had to forfeit my place on the team - it happens, and penalising those that have friends that have to drop out for whatever reason is, frankly, bollocks.
Get over yourself. |
_________________
_____ and rankings - that is all
#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
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Pako |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 28, 2011 - 02:42 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Spain
Posts: 471
Location: Spain
Status: Offline
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Darkson. Pre-registration started December 22th. 11 months before the tourney, not 16. Preregistration payment ended 22th February. So 9 months before the tourney.
There are not so much personal changes that will not allow you to come. Certainly, not many of this changes occurs to two out 6 persons in a year. Change of job, for example, is accompained by new vacation schedule and free days, so it is not a major problem in 90% of cases. Marriage of a friend is known more than 9 months before the wedding...
My point is:
1- Two personal crisis in a team of six people is very improbable. Specially concentrated in a particular weekend.
2- Most of the cases, the problem is not an unpredictable crisis. Is just a question of change of personal priorities or bad organization.
I don't know what is your experience in tourneys, but I guess most of the tournament organizers could agree with these two points.
Assuming one critical situation by team, is very rare that any team would be penalised (you need two unstoppable crisis to be penalised). On the other hand, such a strict regulation could avoid the "pre-register first, think later", which is the present case in this moment.
Do you think that the six persons that I know (and most others from other countries) that finally did not come is because a dead in the family (they know it right now? Wow...) a children coming (Wow again, such a warseer... ) or whatever comparable? Or just a change in their mind, or a bad prevision of costs?
In my mind, the possible damage to teams built in the right way, with concerned people, will be minimal compared with the avoiding of people just registering themselves and changing their mind for other, non critical reasons.
What is a critial reason? For sure it depends on everyone's mind. But someone who leaves the tourney five months before (and sometimes earlier) could think about it 9 months before for sure in 90% of cases. "I don't have enough money", "my girlfriend don't want to have me in Amsterdam playing figurines" or "I've registered just to give my team a chance" are arguments heard.
Give me a break.
And about the "me me me wah wah wah" generation. I guess you should shut up and get a little bit of respect. Maybe you don't agree with me in my personal oppinions. But I'ved tournament organizer for more than six years and league owner for more than twelve. And I noted that otherwise you finely define the rules of your tournament/league, things will go mad. I guess this is the case in WC and I do belive we could do it better (all us). I also think that we need to do it better next time, or little mistakes will become big crisis in the future.
I think disagree and discussion is always positive. Your position is not. Just agree and clap because Amsterdam people are doing their best is not helping anything. Although I am from the "me me me wah wah wah" generation I took this in a more adult way than you. That's it.
Someone who feel offended because his job is subjected to criticism is certainly someone who is not an adult. My professional job is subjected to criticism every day. Additionally, my hobbies (painting, Bloodbowl, Warhammer) are subjected to external oppinions every time I played. Moreover, my tournament and league decissions were and are subjected to criticism and they are welcome.
Otherwise, I will never improve our league nor our tourneys.
You can think this is bitternes, or whatever you want. From my point of view if something could be improved, is our right to say it clear. "Mistake" is not an insult, and I think you should revise your self-esteem. Because for me, someone noting a mistake (or a possible) mistake I did is not a problem, is an opportunity to get better.
I am not going to NAF WC. That's it. And I am not getting nothing more than suggest improvements to get a better WCIII. I am supporting my oppinions with data and considerations that I already have. I had the opportunity to fill some teams here, and I refused. So stop messing about my personal situation.
From my point of view, it was a lack of organization in the present WC. And I think this is not an insult to no one, because organization demonstrated their commitement to solve problems. Even do they did this, I guess we could expect more from NAF and WC organization. That's it.
As I said, the answer is not "go, do it yourself". For me the answer is "hey, I think this is not working fine". And discuss if it certainly is or not. And how improve it.
I am considering many things, from my personal, tournament organizer point of view. I did it before the oversuscription, one year before. I don't change my points of view just to be out. Take a look in my posts if you want. However, I was suffering your personal attacks since the beginning just because I don't agree with WC stuff.
I am a 30 year old biochemistrier. PhD and researcher. I played since 2005 more tourneys than you since 2003 and organized SkullCup (running with up to 90 players) six times, Random Rampage! four times and Winterbowl twice. I helped my friends to organize Tabira Bowl, OpenFEBL and some others. I am one of the owners of LBN league. You can ask spanish poeple how it works.
I am saying so to note you I am not a crying children. And I am expressing my oppinions in a polite, reason-supported way. You can agree or not. NAF could pay attention or not. But I assure you that spanish community is not happy with how the things were performed, even do I am the only one tha waste his time noting it.
If I want to go through my bitterness, I just need to wait and see how next WC will simply explode when rules set up this year will be absolutely overcomed. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 29, 2011 - 01:58 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2696
Location: Undisclosed
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Pako wrote: Darkson. Pre-registration started December 22th. 11 months before the tourney, not 16. Preregistration payment ended 22th February. So 9 months before the tourney.
Really not sure where the 18 months came from - maybe I shouldn't read my new contract before I post...
[brain fart!!!]
Quote: There are not so much personal changes that will not allow you to come. Certainly, not many of this changes occurs to two out 6 persons in a year. Change of job, for example, is accompained by new vacation schedule and free days, so it is not a major problem in 90% of cases. Marriage of a friend is known more than 9 months before the wedding...
Maybe employers are more lenient in Spain - I've had to swap days off and work shifts for people because I couldn't have that weekend as holiday, because others had already booked it.
And yes, most marriages are known about more thn 9 moths in advance, but not all - I had a family weeding a couple of years ago with 2 months notice, which I would have had no chance of missing just for "a stupid game" - do you really want to penalise others if this happens to one (or two or three) of their team-mates?
No-one, absolutely NO-ONE can say what's going to happen to them next week, let alone 3, 6 or 9 moths down the road, and anyone that claims they can is lying. Stuff happens unexpectedly.
Let's take my team. Let's say the company my wife works for goes bust in September, and my wife's out of work - I'd have to drop out. Let's say the partner of another player announces she's expecting their first child in December, so a) to be close and b) for cost they have to drop out - explain why that would be fair to penalise the other 4 players?
I'm glad to see you admit it's all because you're bitter though. |
_________________
_____ and rankings - that is all
#27 of the "24 club" (due to some dodgy accounting)
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Pako |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 29, 2011 - 04:50 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Spain
Posts: 471
Location: Spain
Status: Offline
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Darkson wrote: I'm glad to see you admit it's all because you're bitter though.
Please, start with easier lectures prior to enter in an adult discussion. Certainly, you couldn't understand my posts.
I can suggest some:
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generaljason |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 29, 2011 - 05:53 AM
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Joined: Dec 04, 2009
British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 439
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Status: Offline
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Simon - I know what it's like to feel compelled to answer this but please remember that Trolls regenerate on a 4+.
Andre - is there any way we can set-up some double-decker tables at WCII so this effen guy can play already? Christ I'm sick of reading this $hit. |
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Grumbledook |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 29, 2011 - 06:30 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Posts: 922
Status: Offline
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| chill out guys, it is only a game... |
_________________
'Boomshanker an Interception'
Jon
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Pako |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 30, 2011 - 02:01 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Spain
Posts: 471
Location: Spain
Status: Offline
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I'm fine. It is only that I really don't know if Darkson did not understand my posts or it is simply answering that he wants. As this man is turning 180º my sentences.
Apologize if someone is offended. I am just trying to get this with a little bit of humor.
And BTW, next WC I will pre-register at least four teams, using nicknames of all the NAF LBN members no matter if they will come or not. Then if any of them is selected, I just need to change the names of the original members for the 6 members that really wanted to come...
...that's it, forget about me, I am certainly a troll...  |
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Pako |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 30, 2011 - 02:10 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Spain
Posts: 471
Location: Spain
Status: Offline
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generaljason wrote: Is there any way we can set-up some double-decker tables at WCII so this effen guy can play already? Christ I'm sick of reading this $hit.
I don't know if you read properly this $hit. I already had the chance to come if I want. Filling some teams here in Spain.
So please, let the stupid argument that I am out to not pay attention to the suggestions. Anycase, I will pay for the dice and forget about THIS $hit. The only thing I really want to did is to make this subscription of many teams to get the place and demonstrate this $hit rules to organize WC... Unfortunately, I prefered to try to improve it than to get profit on them. |
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Sebco |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 30, 2011 - 12:14 PM
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Joined: Dec 03, 2004
France
Posts: 466
Location: France
Status: Offline
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I understand and agree with some of your arguments, Pako, but I think it's really really difficult to create an election system with no flaws. The main problem for this WC is that there were more people wanting to come than seats in the tournament place. Organizers improved that, they did their best but they didn't manage to give a seat to every coach who wanted to come. So, yes, that's a pity and, yes, it would be very very better if we could avoid this problem for WC III.
But that's all in my humble opinion. All the other "mistakes" that you underline in your posts are details for me. If there's a room for every one wanting to come, there's no need to squabble about who is chosen, why, how, etc... |
_________________
NAF Membership Director + France NC
Bowl des Neiges XIX : 2022 february 26th & 27th
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Pako |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 01, 2011 - 01:37 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Spain
Posts: 471
Location: Spain
Status: Offline
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I know some of this issues could be taken as details in the present WC. But from my experience as organizer, this minimal inconvenients could turn into a crisis in the future.
This WC finally is a little oversuscribed. But do you really think no one is going to get profit on rule lacking next time if this issues are not adressed properly?
This is my example, and as I said, I prefered to note this than get profit on it. But with the present rules, I could do two things:
1- Presuscribe people who is not already in the NAF.
2- Change the members of the team without any limitation.
Forcing the example, I could register different teams as follows:
LBN nº1
My father NAF nº none
My brother NAF nº none
My sister NAF nº none
My unlce NAF nº none
A friend of my brother NAF nº none
Me NAF Nº 7407
LBN nº2
Potablava
Eolallo
Johan_Peligro
Dr.Lizard
Sandokan
Jow Pow
etc.
No matter if they are NAF members, or even if they play BB ever. No matter if they could or want to come the WC. I just can register 3, 4, 5 teams to get a better chance to come. If finally one of my teams is chosen, I just need to change the real players for the fake ones.
I did not want to screw up WC. No matter what Darkson or whoever think about, I am just trying to get it better, and trying to solve "problems" that I think there are present.
Maybe this example is forced. But do you really thing no one in BB community could do this?
Moreover, and this is my main criticism to NAF and WC organization. Create rules or modify the ruleset after the problems emerge gave the image of lack of interest and organization. I agree some of them could not be imagine, but some other in fact could be. Some of them were noted and ingored, this is another one. Organizers of any event have the responsability to think, to play de devil's role in order to test the event resistance to circumstancies, cheating, etc.
I guess we need to think about this type of possible problems to have a clean, clear and robust method to set up NAF WC.
As I said, from my own experience, some players tend to use this gaps in the rulesets. I guess all you agree with this. My oppinion is that we should fill as main gaps as possible in order to avoid future problems, because NAF WC seems to be growing, and little holes could become big ones when the tourney expand. |
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Grumbledook |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 01, 2011 - 10:49 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Posts: 922
Status: Offline
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You make some good points but you seem to always make them about how you have been wronged by them, rather than from a more critical unbiased stand point.
If you presented them as you did in that last post rather than in the tone some of your previous ones it would help. A lot of them have come across as you moaning about them rather than just trying to be constructive on how things could be improved next time.
While I'm well aware that English isn't your first language (though you seem to have a very good grasp on it) others on here seem to be a bit less forgiving to how you are coming across.
It is clear to everyone there is room for improvement, though the timing right now isn't the most constructive. I think you would be better served dropping this for now and bringing up the points after the WC has finished at the earliest. It will be 4 years at least until the next one so it wouldn't even hurt to wait 2 years before raising the points. I'm sure whoever is NAF President / Tournament Director at the time of arranging the next one will ask for feedback nearer the time of the initial steps towards organising the NAF WC III. I think you can see that some people are getting a bit annoyed about how you are going on and on about it and you keep repeating the same points. So while they are points that I do agree with, I don't think currently is best time to keep going on about them. |
_________________
'Boomshanker an Interception'
Jon
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JaM |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 01, 2011 - 12:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 01, 2004
Posts: 16
Status: Offline
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An absolute +1.
Big words from the little man, and so true. |
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generaljason |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 02, 2011 - 08:54 AM
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Joined: Dec 04, 2009
British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 439
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Status: Offline
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Pako wrote: generaljason wrote: Is there any way we can set-up some double-decker tables at WCII so this effen guy can play already? Christ I'm sick of reading this $hit.
I don't know if you read properly this $hit. I already had the chance to come if I want. Filling some teams here in Spain.
So please, let the stupid argument that I am out to not pay attention to the suggestions. Anycase, I will pay for the dice and forget about THIS $hit. The only thing I really want to did is to make this subscription of many teams to get the place and demonstrate this $hit rules to organize WC... Unfortunately, I prefered to try to improve it than to get profit on them.
Jon pretty much summed up most of my objections to your posts, but mine more specifically are that from the very beginning when pre-reg was finished, and after the joint they rented had reached capacity, and after realizing that your team wasn't going to go (not just you - I realize that you individually could have went but that's not the point), you've spanned over 3 different threads on this site about how this was done so poorly.
I appreciate that you've run large tournaments yourself so you should also be able to appreciate this - the work involved in coordinating a tournament of this size - 480 coaches, largest ever, and taking on all that unpaid stress is enormous. Having a guy piss all over it when it hasn't even started yet has got to be distressing or annoying to say the least.
The only guy you should be apologizing to is Andre. Bless this man for agreeing to organize and sit out for 3 days for the betterment of half a thousand people. Constructive criticism is helpful, but 3 threads, one long winded post after the other, spewing back seat blather would be annoying to any tournament organizer.
Seriously dude your ruining my mellow. I totally want to play against you right now with Dwarves with 9 Dirty Players. I am sorry that your team didn't get to go this year, but it could still happen: 6 months is a long time. Sincerely hope to see you on the other side of the pitch.
Respectfully,
Gj. |
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Pako |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 04, 2011 - 02:04 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2005
Spain
Posts: 471
Location: Spain
Status: Offline
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I gave up to come many months ago. Sincerely, I am too much tired to come even if I have the chance.
All you are right. Unfortunately, my only work related to WC right now is to note weakness. For sure I was not so polite expressing myself, and this was absolutely my fault.
Indeed, note that is also very annoying to heard about how I am bitter because my team is out every time I posted, when most of my criticisms were made before the lottery.
Sorry for all. As said, here you had my 50 cents (or 500 cents).
For sure, I can kick the ass of your dwarves with 9 Dirty Player just with my star goblin Diego Armando Metadona  |
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Joemanji |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 08, 2011 - 01:08 AM
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Joined: Dec 13, 2003
England
Posts: 298
Location: England
Status: Offline
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| Is he still going? Geez. |
_________________
*This post may have been made without the use of a hat.
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