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Grumbledook |
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Post subject: Article criticising tournaments...
 Posted: Sep 02, 2011 - 06:36 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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while this is aimed at warhammer/40k tournaments there are some points that carry over, mainly prizes and the competitive edge it encourages over sportsmanship and diversity of tournament races
when a tournament has a great prize of a pro painted team up for grabs, there is a higher incentive to try and win it and thus take a more competitive race to the tournament, when there is already a bias towards wood elves undead etc this is a shame to encourage it even more
also there are now far more tournaments (especially here in the UK) than there used to be which is generating a lower average turnout as not everyone can go to every tournament
I'd like to see a prize like that be given out as a lottery to everyone who has attended, not only is it fairer as everyone apart from the really local players paid expenses to attend, it can encourage greater attendance to your event as even if they turn up with flings they may still win the team, but it lowers the predominance of the more "powerful" races
you could take things even further by offering extra lottery entries to those who travel from further away, and also more entries depending on what race you play as well
I know there are coaches that think some tournaments and coaches are overly competitive, so doing things to the benefit of everyone who is attending is something I think more tournament organisers could do well to address
spot prizes are now fairly commonplace and this is a nice start, but there are only so many "tournament dice" I can leave sitting unused in a bag that winning these isn't something that usually interests me these days, now something useful like a mini...
if you are interested in the article then the link is below
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/09/editorial-are-we-making-gw-games.html
be interested to see how others feel about the points I raised above |
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'Boomshanker an Interception'
Jon
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generaljason |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 02, 2011 - 08:54 AM
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Joined: Dec 04, 2009
British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 439
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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Where do you find these articles Jon? 
Everyone attending the Spike! automatically receives whatever giveaway my club has worked on for that year. 2010 it was the coin, this year it's Count Luthor 2011, 2009 it was 2 Ulfwereners, ect. This is for every participant. Also, we have a slew of door prizes where everyone who took part in the tournament has their name put into a hat to be drawn at the end of the weekend.
Other than the 'glittering prizes' we hand out at the end of the tournament to the winners of each category, there is nothing else that we hand out to the overall winner. Also, the overall winner needs a painted team and they'd need average sportsmanship scores to win - not just their record, although coaching represents potentially up to 75% of the scoring.
Since we introduced a Best Stunty Award last year we've seen a significant increase in the so-called "non-competitive" teams. This year Stunties represent about 15% of the Spike! teams in 2011. Also, of the 55 teams signed up so far 17/24 Blood Bowl teams have been represented. Granted Skaven have 7 teams, where Dwarves, Dark Elves and Lizardmen have 5 each, but surprisingly no Undead teams so far!!
So while there are coaches that are still playing plenty of competitive teams at Blood Bowl tournaments I believe this is more due to preference rather than competitiveness. Sure there are still a large portion playing in order to try to win the whole thing I don't believe this is anywhere near the same degree as WFB/40K tournaments. My brother went to a 40K tournament in the States a few years back where of the 50 or so participants about 42 squads were Chaos. I've never seen a Blood Bowl tournament that lopsided, but then again Blood Bowl doesn't see a new codex come out every 6 months either.
So while Blood Bowl does not profess to say that every team is equal, it's still balanced enough that we still see a variety of teams and the spirit of community over competitiveness is still largely prevalent. This is just my limited experience with the tournament scene in the pacific north west mind you.
2 cents. Thanks for pointing out that article Grum.
Gj. |
Last edited by generaljason on Sep 02, 2011 - 10:32 AM; edited 1 time in total
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DrunkZombie |
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Post subject: RE: Article criticising tournaments...
Posted: Sep 02, 2011 - 08:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 14, 2009
United States of America
Posts: 50
Location: United States of America
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I like your ideas. I purposefully don't play the more competitive races. I play races that I enjoy playing like Chaos and this year I am trying Chaos Pact. While this may reduce my chances of winning the tourney, I am more interested in having fun. In fact I like the challenge and the ribbing my opponent's friends give them when I do win. "Dude, you lost to Chaos!"  If wood elves, undead, etc... really are your favorite race and you enjoy playing them, cool. However If you play them just so you can win, you are taking Blood Bowl way too seriously in my opinion.
If I just wanted a painted team,instead of going to the tourney, I would use the registration fee and the money spent on a hotel room, gas, etc... to hire someone to paint one. |
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Grumbledook |
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Post subject: RE: Article criticising tournaments...
Posted: Sep 02, 2011 - 09:30 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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fair point about saving up to have one painted
but wouldn't you rather go to the tournaments and then have a chance of winning the pro painted team with chaos, could possibly end up with both...
of course you could win the tournament with chaos, it just isn't as likely as with woodies or undead etc, unless you are at a tournament that tries to balance the races a bit more
even at those though the better coaches are still more likely to win, a lottery evens things out and gives those taking it less seriously a chance
obviously different people have different aims at a tournament, though prize distribution tends to benefit those with the more competitive side
slurp made a new stats page showing the winning % of each race, it would be interesting to see a similar chart with the % of games played by races too |
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'Boomshanker an Interception'
Jon
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Grumbledook |
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Post subject: RE: Article criticising tournaments...
Posted: Sep 02, 2011 - 09:39 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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oops missed GJ's post
I got made redundant so got lots of time to browse the web inbetween some DIY projects I'm doing ;]
the set up you have the Sike! is the sort of thing I'm talking about, everyone gets the same door prizes regardless of anything else, the winner gets the accolade of winning (which would be even greater if my suggestions for a revamp on tournament pages and coach profiles was implemented)
the stunty teams tend to get taken regardless of the rules, I was more talking about the teams that hardly anyone takes, high elves, pro elves, nurgle, chaos, pact, slann (assuming you now include the three new ones that is 7 races you've not had appear) a random distribution of a valuable prize wouldn't by itself encourage the uptake on those though
in the UK over the last couple of years tournament rulesets have varied a lot to make all 24 races a more viable selection as far as winning goes, I've personally gone out of my way to attend these more than the "standard" as I've found it more enjoyable playing a wider range of races
I didn't mean to make it sound like BB tournies were turning into warhammer/40k ones (not that I've been to any but I've heard what they are like) but the point in the article that good prizes just for the winners were part of the problem reminded me of the parallels for BB tournaments that offer up the same |
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'Boomshanker an Interception'
Jon
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daloonieshaman |
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Post subject: RE: Article criticising tournaments...
Posted: Sep 02, 2011 - 10:13 AM
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Joined: Feb 28, 2003
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First of all, interesting problem (Good thing we are not in the UK)
For several of us running Majors or Regionals we give out a "goodie bag" of stuff to every player. Most have some "quirk" (first TD) prizes (dice, patch, snickers). The 'winners' get their trophy/certificate and some sort of prize for that accomplishment. We handed out a new team to the last place person saying that they suck at what they are playing and need to try a new direction. The last event our winner was Orc. The most brutal was GOBLINS.
Something else about the stats. It does not reflect things like who was there, who played what against what. Who were teh players that won with the top teams. A greet player is a great player. Many strong players will play a stronger team to increase the odds of winning, whilst a great coach will compete with a team that will challenge his skills playing against the full spectrum.
so in short. An average player is not winning with undead or wood elves mostly the better players not challenging themselves. If you play an average team against a better opponent with a top team and beat him, he is your bitch.
Then again there is always dice. You can have your day that is average, spot on, or can't buy anything but a 1. easy street is just that and we have had those games and apologized to our opponent as we worked them all game. Then we have had the reverse where you end up roll 15(or more) 1's in a single game.
Bottom line is I do not follow stats as they are only as good as the data.
If your event is lagging make changes to it.
Make an uber 175m event (or higher)
Add skills as you go event game 1 get x # of skills etc
Random skill event (Put all the skills on paper chits in a bag (one of each) 6 players get a skill Player A draws ..., Player B draws ... (longer set up time but random as all get out)(look a goblin with TTM)
Cards: everyone get x gold for cards (only inducement allowed) either drawn at the start of the event or every game (encourages new deck draws)
Change the date or time of the event
Draft or buy your team event (have the 24 races each with a cost say Undead is $10, goblins are $1, and everywhere in between. You want to play a "big team" contribute more to the prize pool |
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Why restrict yourselves by only playing local tournaments, take your team on the road.
Best Painted: Rocky Mountain Rampage 2012, 2013, Avatar Blood Bowl Championship 2011
Stunty Cup: West Coast Quake 2012, Zlurpeebowl IV 2008
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Grumbledook |
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Post subject: RE: Article criticising tournaments...
Posted: Sep 02, 2011 - 10:29 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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| this wasn't about getting more people to your tournament, that was just perhaps a side effect of the point that I think a valuable prize shouldn't just automatically go to the winner |
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'Boomshanker an Interception'
Jon
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DrunkZombie |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Article criticising tournaments...
Posted: Sep 02, 2011 - 01:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 14, 2009
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Grumbledook wrote: fair point about saving up to have one painted
but wouldn't you rather go to the tournaments and then have a chance of winning the pro painted team with chaos, could possibly end up with both...
of course you could win the tournament with chaos, it just isn't as likely as with woodies or undead etc, unless you are at a tournament that tries to balance the races a bit more
even at those though the better coaches are still more likely to win, a lottery evens things out and gives those taking it less seriously a chance
obviously different people have different aims at a tournament, though prize distribution tends to benefit those with the more competitive side
slurp made a new stats page showing the winning % of each race, it would be interesting to see a similar chart with the % of games played by races too
I think I wasn't clear. I think your random drawing for the prize, a painted team for example, is a good idea. That way I have a chance to win it. I was just trying to say that as things are right now, I will not play a stronger race just for a better chance to win said prize. If I want the prize so badly, I'll just buy it. |
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Jonny_P |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Article criticising tournaments...
Posted: Sep 02, 2011 - 08:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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I have played in Warhammer and 40k touranments in the past, and I did not have much fun. Hiding a Daemon Prince behind a mountaint because he's worth too many victory points, or hiding the exact amount of Necrons so they wont phase out. It's so stupid. You are playing a WAR game, but with a GAME mindset, instead of the role-playing aspect of war.
Blood Bowl Tournaments are very differnt in nature. The fluff is already a GAME. So playing it in a tournament environment actually makes sense. You can say the tourney hired the best apothecaries and necromancers around hence the resurrection rule.
So while the GW battle games lends itself to not playing to the theme of the fluff, BB always does. It's something that a lot of people don't think about when comparing BB to other GW games in a competitive environment. |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Article criticising tournaments...
Posted: Sep 04, 2011 - 01:07 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Undisclosed
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I can see both sides to this (and as I'm not a top player, I'm not saying this because I win a lot!  ).
How about a random draw for the top prizes, but the winners (1st, 2nd most TDs, top Stunty etc) get more entries?
That said, I think this is probably aimed more at the tourneys that give a "big" first prize, rather than something like mine where the prizes are smaller? |
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Grumbledook |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Article criticising tournaments...
Posted: Sep 04, 2011 - 04:29 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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that would be much the same as just giving everyone one entry, assuming you are giving out ones for weaker races / distance travelled, could just as well keep things simple and give everyone one
does go a little against the idea of not encouraging being competitive, I think those coaches are going to play that way anyway, though it does give everyone a chance of winning it which was more the premise in the first place so it would be better imo
you are right it is more aimed at big prizes rather than a selection of smaller prizes and you've given a mini away to everyone attending too |
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'Boomshanker an Interception'
Jon
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SolarFlare |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Article criticising tournaments...
Posted: Sep 06, 2011 - 07:28 AM
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Joined: Nov 24, 2004
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I like the idea of a random drawing for a major prize. I don't think it's necessary at all tournaments, though. There's room for some of each...
Also, I have played a lot (say 20-30) of WHFB tourneys (mostly 5-10 years ago). And quite a few BB tourneys. In my opinion, BB tourneys are more fun. I rarely have a non-enjoyable game/opponent at a Blood Bowl tournament. While the majority of my WHFB games were enjoyable, there was a percentage that were not (due to the nature of the game).
I have never thought over-competitiveness was a problem in Blood Bowl. (That said... I love to compete. I love the challenge that playing good coaches with their best teams at tournaments brings. But I would rather lose a fun game than win a contentious one.)
But I like the idea of encouraging new/less experience coaches with the random drawing prize. The most important thing is that the community continues to grow with the focus on everyone having fun. |
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Rodders |
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Post subject: Re: Article criticising tournaments...
Posted: Sep 06, 2011 - 11:02 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2004
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Grumbledook wrote:
I'd like to see a prize like that be given out as a lottery to everyone who has attended, not only is it fairer as everyone apart from the really local players paid expenses to attend, it can encourage greater attendance to your event as even if they turn up with flings they may still win the team, but it lowers the predominance of the more "powerful" races
At the carrot crunch this year we gave out 5 teams to 5 different entrants as a lottery rather than to the winners of the regular prizes (but winner etc did get a small trophy to take home) and we're hoping to be in a position to do it again next year |
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JJ |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 07, 2011 - 02:03 AM
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Joined: Apr 27, 2007
Belgium
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at the goblin slaughterfest we try to find different solutions.
second edition the winner played chaos pact.
third edition ; we gave away a team , you just had to put real player's on a bloodbowl board. We gave away a painted frog team, so we needed a big guy, some catcher's etc... The guy with the most points won the team
Fourth edition ; we had a side event called 'halflinton'; badminton with halflings. During the final every one was standing near the pitch and was applauding. We even had a mexican wave. Great fun.
This year we're thinking about a 'we don't know yet' decathlon. Also the winner get's to choose the next year's edition.
in my opinion a competitive player will always be a competitive player. For me competitive and fun can go together. I'm pretty serious during a game, as soon as it is over we grab a drink and have a laugh. |
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chitownpicaro |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 17, 2012 - 11:38 AM
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Joined: Apr 20, 2012
Orland Park
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| I play Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Norse, and I want to do a fun team. I would rather have fun and a few laughs rather than a serious game where I am too worried about winning. The game is best played in an informal manner with friends. I think a raffle is best for everyone but a first place prize and secon place prize is appropriate. Just make it so the same person doesn't get both prizes. |
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