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daloonieshamanOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 04, 2012 - 01:06 PM



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      Deathwing wrote:
I think what is quite a pertinent question is what a WC with 200+ coaches would do for the tournament scene in NA? Would there be any long term benefits to the NA tourney scene by getting more NA coaches together in one place than ever before in terms of creating and strengthening bonds?

Very open to debate, but it's a factor worth consideration and discussion IMO.


No DW that is not the question.
The question is: "How do we make the WC the best BB event for those attending regardless of location or attendance."

Best form of advertising is word of mouth.

I have not heard more than "It was cool, Had a good time, Italians a freaking nuts, Amsterdam was nice, Tom cussed like a sailor.
I am sure some people put up cool pictures. but I would have to search high and low to dig some up.

so far where is?:
The pre-event advertising (some little thread in an obscure forum)
The live advertising (web sites, podcast? ....)
Post advertising? (obscure web forum, maybe a lost post about someone putting up pictures?

you tell me
 
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Jonny_POffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 04, 2012 - 02:07 PM



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Great article Deathwing... lots of good points in there.

I myself have only been to Canada and Mexico, and some islands that I think the US owns but don't remember much except lots of drinks and beaches.

I really do want to go to Europe one day. If I can swing a two week vacation there with my wife, and have it occur during a World Cup there, it would be truly amazing.

As a US NAF coach since 2003 and Tournament Organizer since 2006, I can honestly say I would prefer if the World Cup was not in America in 2015. I don't think we are ready to take on such an endeavor.

To me, the term "Blood Bowl World Cup" doesn't mean the location has to travel the world. It means crazy fanatical coaches from all over the world will flock to this event and have an unbelievable time!

I should stop there. But...

To all the North American coaches out there who want a World Cup here, you really need to ask yourself if it's for selfish reasons or not.

If the reason is, "I'll never go to Europe to play Blood Bowl, so let's just have it here so I can attend a World Cup", then I'm glad you are not involved in the World Cup decision making process.

It's not about being selfish. It's about having the best possible experience for this global Blood Bowl organization.

Think about others for a change.

And all this coming from the egotistical Main Guy! Wink
 
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DoubleskullsOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 04, 2012 - 02:11 PM
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      millandson wrote:
Just to point out, those figures for 2011 are missing out a couple of tourneys, including the NAF Championship, which, to my knowledge, had around 200 people attending, and you had to sign up to NAF as part of going (from what I remember).

If Europe can pull off tourneys like that every yea, but the US can't do even one that big... that's sort of a negative against the US being able to pull off something of that size even if it is called the World Cup.

If the US can prove it can pull off events of that size, then they'll be in a strong position to bid for the World Cup. Until then, Europe is the better bet by far for the quality of the event, and the quantity of coaches attending.


Europe's got nearly four times as many coaches in a small fraction of the space. Getting big regular tournaments is about density. The world cup got about 3 times as many as next largest tournament, which would give the US/Canada about 150 coaches.

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daloonieshamanOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 04, 2012 - 04:06 PM



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how many where in attendance in 2007(I think it was 7)? Wink

So by your reckoning because it is about quantity (and % wise quality) that Spike and Chaos Cup do not hold muster and thus should not be held in NA?

and by no means do I think US should bid for the WC in 2015 we are still working some bugs out for our own NA event. But for 2019 we should kick ass in a bid despite the fact of a smaller attendance. Besides, it would not be a "local" tournament as the WC is today.
 
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poundfistOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 04, 2012 - 05:05 PM



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Dalooniehaman:

      Quote:
"you know what % of Californians were at Comic con Last Year? 42.7% and by all means most of those were from more that 100 miles away."


This is not true. Comic-Con has an annual attendance these days of about 125 Thousand. California has a population of about 35 Million. If everyone who attended Comic Con were from California, then less than 1/3 of 1 percent of Californians attended Comic Con.

If what you meant to say was "42.7 percent of Comic Con attendants were from California," in order to point out that 57.3 percent of the event's attendants traveled to be there, then there are some details missing from your report:

1) how many of the 57.3% came from Utah, Oregon, Nevada, and other local areas?;
2) what percentage (this is the most relevant) of these attendants came from Europe and Australia?;

and finally

3) to what extent did 40 years of international media coverage affect these numbers?

      Quote:
So by your reckoning because it is about quantity (and % wise quality) that Spike and Chaos Cup do not hold muster and thus should not be held in NA?


This does not follow. In fact I can't even make any sense of it. Is it a joke?

The World Cup argument goes like this:

1. There is a quota system regarding coach attendance at the World Cup. This year, there was a maximum allowance of 48 Coaches from North America (Ultimately, 12 made the trip). If we take it for granted that a North American event will attract 48 North American coaches, then the success of any North American event is irrelevant. Of course a North American event will attract that many coaches, and turn away many others. Therefore the World Cup could be held in Vancouver, it could be held in Chicago, it could be held in Indianapolis, and based on past numbers it would draw the quota of North American coaches.

2. The average flight from a European city to a North American destination is about $1000. The average flight from a European city to a European destination is about $150. This year there was much debate in the NAF World Cup thread as to whether the event ticket was overpriced at 111 Euros.

3. The suspicion is not that a North American event will not draw enough North American participants. It is that it will not draw enough European participants.

By your point cited above, if you can show that of the more than half of Comic Con participants that came from outside California, if even 1% of those came from Europe, and they came only for Comic-Con, you will have made the argument that Comic Con does not draw a significant number of International participants and that it cannot be considered a successful INTERNATIONAL event. This does not prove that it is not a successful EVENT.

Therefore, The Chaos Cup and the Spike, while successful events, are not successful international events. I would not hold them up in comparison with the Amsterdam NAF World Cup.

Everything you say about advertising and promotion is spot-on, of course, except that I have to disagree with you regarding the importance of attendance numbers. Of course numbers matter, and this is why every large event boasts of its numbers. I can tell you that Comic Con had 125000 this year because it's right there on the Comic-Con home page. This recent World Cup had 480 coaches. If you held the swankest and best advertised World Cup in the history of Blood Bowl, and people were talking about it for weeks afterward, and it had 90 coaches, and 60 of them were from the United States, that event would be a failure. You can say that numbers are not everything, but you can't argue that numbers don't matter at all.

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Last edited by poundfist on Feb 05, 2012 - 02:26 AM; edited 1 time in total
 
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daloonieshamanOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 04, 2012 - 07:41 PM



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Ironically:
It is a world cup because people from all over the world may come. Screw that logic people form around the world can go to 99.5% of the events currently held

It is the world cup because it gets lots of people. Funny thing is it got less than 2x the '07 numbers and slightly more than twice the up coming Blood Bowl (ohh he said a dirty word) *which is limited by finite space.

The Chaos Cup (I am not sure about Spike) Received more Travelers than the WCII % wise. (So where is the pull there)

All the distention about making the WC more than a local event (granted a large one) is bunk.

Other events get more travelers by %.

It barely grew in numbers compared to overall registration from WC to WCII.
It barely has moved around Europe and relatively will not travel far for such a "important" event.

Why would more that a few % want to even go to the WC in Europe when it is indicated that only a few % want to travel out
 
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Jonny_POffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 04, 2012 - 09:30 PM



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      daloonieshaman wrote:
by no means do I think US should bid for the WC in 2015

Hey Dennis, just curious.... if I read your above statement correctly, what exactly is the point you are arguing for in this thread?

Are you arguing in your spare time? Wink

 
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XtremeOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 04, 2012 - 10:46 PM
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      daloonieshaman wrote:
      zootsuitjeff wrote:
I'm done with this thread.

+1

Liar.

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daloonieshamanOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 04, 2012 - 11:56 PM



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      Xtreme wrote:
      daloonieshaman wrote:
      zootsuitjeff wrote:
I'm done with this thread.

+1

Liar.

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Jonny, no idea. I haven't taken my meds the last 2-3 days
 
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magictobeOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 05, 2012 - 12:51 AM



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Just an idea.

First my 2cents.
Do numbers count. I think it does. A world cup with over 400 coaches is more a WC then a WC with 200 coaches.

Is it fair that travelling coaches has to carry all costs to travel to the world cup? No. The costs are and will always be for the same coaches.


IDEA
Let's charge an extra 10-15 euro for the european coaches to be devided under the non european coaches to compensate for travelling costs.

I don't know what the amount of non european coaches was compared to the european but I can expect a ratio of 10-1. So a non european coach could get to 100 (150) euro. It will not carry all costs but it would show some solidarity and also European coaches would still have to pay for their own travelling cost)

I would be willing to pay that extra fee because I know that I am lucky that world cup is in Europe. Do I want to pay the extra to make it easier for the travelling coaches? HELL YEAH. I am willing to pay the extra amount to play an american coach then again against the average European coach

In this case the travelling expenses will be cheapest for the total of the WC and they are (more then before) devided amongst all coaches.

It will be more expensive to get +350 coaches to the states then +50 (or even 100) coaches from the states to Europe.

Travelling cost is such an issue in comparison to FIFA WC because their travelling cost is carried by country communities. We, bloodbowl players, are individuals who have to carry their own travelling costs (spoilled soccer players )

Everybody is talking about only 400 places but if venue was bigger then there would have been more participants. Maybe we could have gone to 600 (ask Pako Rolling Eyes Wink ) Would there still be a comparison to a 200 coaches WC in the US?
 
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poundfistOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 05, 2012 - 01:30 AM



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It is a "world cup" because international attendance is managed with a quota system. Coaches from around the world are invited, yes, but not all may come. For instance, some European teams this year were turned away because the quotas were met for their countries.

North America has two countries with active Blood Bowl participation. For the event to be successful, it would require travelers from numerous European destinations. Europe has dozens of countries. For the event to be considered a success, it would also require travelers from these various countries. This travel is cheap, and the countries are numerous, so getting these numbers is relatively easy. It would create a story if a significant number of coaches arrived from North America, New Zealand and Australia, but even if those countries had no representation, the event would still have enough teams to be considered a success.

If Europeans did not attend a North American event (2 countries), then the quota system would need to be removed, or there would be sporadic attendance. For an Australian/New Zealand event (2 countries) to be a success, again more people would need to spend money to travel. I would love to go to a World Cup at a North American destination, and I have faith that dozens of North American coaches would love to attend. But for the thing to be any good, it would need more than 200 European coaches to attend (that would be 30-or-so teams). I would like to hear from 200+ European coaches who would make the trip before I started trying to compare the Amsterdam World Cup with the Chaos Cup or the Spike.

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DoubleskullsOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 06, 2012 - 12:53 AM
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The quota system is only in place to allocate spaces in the event the World Cup is oversubscribed. You don't need it otherwise.

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DeathwingOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 06, 2012 - 11:28 AM
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      daloonieshaman wrote:
      Deathwing wrote:
I think what is quite a pertinent question is what a WC with 200+ coaches would do for the tournament scene in NA? Would there be any long term benefits to the NA tourney scene by getting more NA coaches together in one place than ever before in terms of creating and strengthening bonds?

Very open to debate, but it's a factor worth consideration and discussion IMO.


No DW that is not the question.


No, it's not "the question". I said "quite a pertinent" question, "open to debate" and "a factor worth consideration/discussion IMO".

What on earth has your reply got to do with anything I wrote? Why would you bother to quote it and then rant on about something unrelated to my post?

Let's try again. Points for discussion, not any kind of argument or even my own points of view, other than that I think they are factors worth considering.
If there was to be a WC in NA, would that be a positive catalyst to the NA tourney scene with lasting benefits to the NA NAF community?
Going further, could a greater mix of European/NA coaches than has ever been achieved before bring any benefits to the worldwide NAF community and do some good towards breaking down what some may see as grand isolationism?

I don't know (hence asking for discussions/opinions), but if there's positive answers to either of the above questions, then I think it becomes a relevant factor. If the answer(s) are no, it would be simply be a one-off event and afterwards everything would revert to how it was before, then it's obviously not a factor at all.

There are other imponderable questions outside of pure strength of bid and biggest numbers. Simply trying to throw one into the discussion mix.

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DeathwingOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 06, 2012 - 04:39 PM
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Just touching on the numbers a little:
I'm not certain we can assume an ever increasing line on the graph based on 2 WCs. I've said this before, but the deciding factor for my vote for the WCII location was accessibility and strong international (and relatively cheap) transport links. Although there were (a relatively small amount after the organisers extra efforts) coaches who couldn't be squeezed in, I don't believe the other bids would have drawn as much interest purely because of location.
(Perhaps, with the benefit of hindsight, it would have been better to have had perhaps 400 to 450? (pure conjecture on my part) in a less accessible location with everybody who wanted to attend being able to.) Amsterdam was a double edged sword in some ways...there's an inherent danger in extrapolating numbers for WCIII based on WCI and II...

Apologies...I got waaay off-topic there...I guess the point was that if we had, say 420, demand satisfied and everybody accommodated in 2011 (which I think is entirely plausible if another bid had won), then perhaps the conjecture for 600 next time wouldn't be bandied around so much. That would put a different light on things.

My gut feelings? If WCIII was held in NA in an accessible inter-continental location you would still have more Europeans travelling to it than you have had NA coaches together to date. With the right promotion 200-250 would be possible I think. That would huge for NA and I personally would that see as a great success. But I can see that 2015 may be perceived as too soon by some.

In principle, I would love to see the WC travel. A NA WC with perhaps a 45% NA : 45% Euro : 10% OZ/NZ ratio I think could be seen as a greater success than a Euro WC with an 80% Euro : 10% NA : 10% OZ/NZ even if the actual number of attendees was significantly lower.

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generaljasonOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 07, 2012 - 11:30 PM



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      Deathwing wrote:
      generaljason wrote:

then why don't they go to Europe? East to West is nearly the same price as East to Europe?


How does West to Europe compare?

Just for discussion, do you think this has any relevance?

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-04/travel/americans.travel.domestically_1_western-hemisphere-travel-initiative-passports-tourism-industries?_s=PM:TRAVEL


Great article James. Very apropos. And yeah, West to Europe is just as lousy I'm afraid.
 
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