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Torpor |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Jan 27, 2004 - 09:02 AM
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Joined: Mar 18, 2003
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Posts: 157
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
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HowlingGriffon wrote:
Quote: I think Old Man Monkey has the right idea - NAF should purchase the figu[r]es and select the painters at random. Maybe other NAF members could purchase and supply their own painted miniaturers of support staff for the team and get some kind of prize for the best effort
This team had a lottery for the right to paint a 'free' miniature and the rest of the individuals who participated provided their own. Some of those who were given miniatures did not, in the end, submit them for the team (see page 1 of the thread for list of who participated, who got what and what was submitted). I provided my own bits for the markers without expecting anything other than a chance to win the team. I doubt that anyone else who provided their own miniatures expected any more than I did. Though a nice idea, I think that it would detract from the camaraderie of the Legacy Team concept to have competitions within competitions (an extra chance for some people to get things that are not open to others). My painting though servicable isn't Golden or even Silver Demon winning, but as long as my entry is welcome I will be happy to provide one.
Cheers
Torpor |
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Old_Man_Monkey |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 27, 2004 - 09:12 AM
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Joined: Apr 16, 2003
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Posts: 1252
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Ah, thank you Torpor, I couldn't recall how the painters for the team were selected and divided among those who got minis for free and those who provided their own. In my mind, this would also serve, the only potential problem being if a very large number of people wanted to paint.
Still as has been noted earlier, a number of people end up dropping out - I still like the idea of NAF providing then the basic team and orchaestrating the guidelines for how the team is given out and some rules about reselling the team.
Cheers right back!
-OMM |
_________________
Tournament Organizer - The Three Kingdoms Challenge
Semi-retired NAF staff
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Torpor |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 27, 2004 - 09:43 AM
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Joined: Mar 18, 2003
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Posts: 157
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Has there been any progress on the photography front?
If so, is there a link to where the pictures are?
Torpor |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 27, 2004 - 10:33 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 2319
Location: United States of America
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| Grasshopper forgot his camera, but a guy in my league showed me how to throw mine into macro mode per Tim's advice. So they (the photos) are looking much better than before. I've taken photos of most of them and should have them posted and distributed in the next few days. Any group shots will be short a few mini's, but I can always add them in and redo the group shots later. |
_________________
aka Rob (NAF #248)
President of the Lord Borak Fan Club
Founder of the GCLU
Commissioner, TO, Goblin King, NEBBN TSO
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Tojurub |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 27, 2004 - 12:29 PM
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Joined: Aug 18, 2003
Germany
Posts: 1520
Location: Germany
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Just to give my 2 pence worth regarding the selling/not-selling the Legacy team.
I agree that is basically impossible to completely control what a person is doing with the team. I also agree that certain guidelines have to be set up prior to people commiting on painting.
I had a weird idea which is half way between selling the team and not making profit of it (if something like that exists). I think the team is should be allowed to change ownership within the people who participated (a list of all "team members" aka painters for each year should be kept on this webpage). If somebody decides to give up the team he first must notify the NAF, then the highest bidder of the other painters can submit their bid within a certain time frame. The highest bidder must pay the amount to the NAF and the NAF in return gives a 50% share to the owner, but never more than the value of an unpainted basic team!
As I said....it's a weird idea, but maybe not
[edit] That way the NAF gets some kind of reimbursement for donating the figures each year, but the winner can't make much money out of the team....the current owner should always be posted on the webpage and he has to bring the team (not necessarily to play, but to show) to every NAF sponsored tournament he/she attents. |
_________________
Dwarves rule!!! Especially when they pass!
3rd place Underworld Cup 2003
Swiss Champion 2004
2nd place Royal RumBBL 2015 and White Star Cup 2016
.....and now Ex-Vize-Prez
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Grasshopper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 27, 2004 - 01:30 PM
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Joined: Jun 07, 2003
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Posts: 332
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HOLY CRAP!!! This is retarded... I just spent more time gong back and forth through this thread than I did painting my vamp!
The best comparison I heard was the reference to the lottery winner who decides to give his winnings away... seems fitting since this was a lottery and SF can do what he wants with what he won. It's not a library book, or for lack of another award "The Stanley Cup" where it gets passed around to everyone who took part in it. That in itself would be silly given the number of times the team would have to be mailed. And I'm not just saying this because I'm in the same league as Mel and SF, If Galak won and ended up trading or selling it to Trav... SO WHAT? SF won it in a fair draw done by Andy, it's his team, his property now, his call. We all knew that after our fig was painted and mailed off that, short of pics and the luck of the draw, we'd most likely never see it again.
On the matter of telling people they suck?.. If you didn't even participate in the team, then shut yer pie hole*. You're out nothing anyways and shouldn't be griping.
*No disrespect intended, that's just how I talk*
And a clause saying that the winner has to bring it to every NAF thing they attend, come on now. That's like telling me to bring a Basketball to a hockey game. If it's not going to be played, you shouldn't be made to bring it.
On a happier note, The figs that are in look great, Trav your thrall gave me wood. The counters looked FAN-FREAKIN-TASTIC, and since I can't possibly remember everything else, lemme just say wow. They are in a place will they will be revered and played if that eases anyones miscontent. So now if we're all done maybe we can drop all the garbage and just get on with the '04 theme votes, and maybe see if Squig's finished his Lizardman team? 
But that's just my 2 cents.
P.S. Mel... you suck.   |
_________________
I do this to support my paintbrush licking habit.
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Tim |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 06:36 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Germany
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Location: Germany
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Old_Man_Monkey wrote: Ah, thank you Torpor, I couldn't recall how the painters for the team were selected and divided among those who got minis for free and those who provided their own. In my mind, this would also serve, the only potential problem being if a very large number of people wanted to paint.
Hmm ... i don't think the NAF would have to provide the minis on a regular basis. It depends. Getting the vampires from Andy was nice because it was a prerelease. But looking at the TBB Slannesh team, the mini selection and modification was part of the fun, actually there are only 2 or 3 Blood Bowl minis in the team, the rest is different stuff. Telling the NAF i need an 1992 Archive Slannesh Chaos Warrior ... well, hardly possible. I got it on EBay for 3 Euros, so no big deal as well. |
_________________
NAF Regional Tournament Co-Ordinator - Germany
currently somewhere in NAF Ranking ... 
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Old_Man_Monkey |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 12:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 16, 2003
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| Well then, Tim, as one of the preeminent painters in the community, let me ask you directly: would you like to see quidelines established for the legacy teams going forward that cover reselling the team? |
_________________
Tournament Organizer - The Three Kingdoms Challenge
Semi-retired NAF staff
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 01:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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Posts: 2319
Location: United States of America
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Tim wrote:
For coming Legacy teams, how about we agree on the following:
If the team ever has to be sold, regardless of the reason, all members that participated in the team have to be contacted and are allowed to reply with one bid for the team within 14 days. The team is sold to the member with the highest bid only. It's not allowed to sell the team to other people than those who participated.
Here was Tim's initial idea, although he may have additional thoughts to add to it now. |
_________________
aka Rob (NAF #248)
President of the Lord Borak Fan Club
Founder of the GCLU
Commissioner, TO, Goblin King, NEBBN TSO
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BlanchPrez |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 02:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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Wow... this discusion blew up in the last few days.
Here's my take on things. Having done a Legacy Team twice now (one still waiting for the drawing), I can say the we contribuitors put in a lot of blood, sweat and tears into the mini's we contribute. We, as someone said, are trying not to just create a team, but something unique. As such, we all form emotional attachments to our figures, which makes it difficult enough to mail off to someone knowing that we might never see it again. So, when someone says they want to sell the team, it's insulting to us because it says that this person wasn't as emotionally attached as we were, and that all the work we put into this team didn't matter one wit to this person.
Now, in this specific case, I don't think this was the case with SkinkFury. He and Mel are good friends, and see each other on a regular basis. As Mel staited, he begged Skink to sell him the team, and eventually Skink relented. So, two things happened here. The team stayed within the group, and went to someone that cared about the team. Does this mean Skink doesn't care about the team? No, absoloutly not. I think he does, just not as much as Mel does (either that, or Mel is just really annoying, and Skink sold it just to shut him up. ). Am I okay with Mel getting the team? Yes and no. Yes because I know that he'll take good care of the team and care about it the same way I would. No because it makes the point of it being a lottery drawing moot. Why bother, why not just have everyone submit a mini, and then have everyone bid on the whole team, highest bid gets the team? (Please note that I am not mad at either Mel or Skink, just stating my feelings here).
One thing we all need to remember is that all of this is based on emotions, not facts. To the idea that this is the same as someone winning the lottery and giving the money away, I say it's not the same. We dont form emotional attachments to money (well, I don't, anyway). This would be like someone selling their olympic gold medal. It's not about the money, it's about the sentiment that went into making this team.
I think that if someone wants to sell the team, they shouldn't join in the first place. But, if someone, for whatever reason, feels the need to sell the team, I agree with Tim, people that contribuited should have first right of refusal, and should be the only people it is sold to.
My $.02
Chris |
_________________
At times like these I am reminded of the immortal words of Socrates, who said "... I drank what?"
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Tojurub |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 02:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 18, 2003
Germany
Posts: 1520
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
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| Amen! |
_________________
Dwarves rule!!! Especially when they pass!
3rd place Underworld Cup 2003
Swiss Champion 2004
2nd place Royal RumBBL 2015 and White Star Cup 2016
.....and now Ex-Vize-Prez
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Deathwing |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 06:49 PM
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Former President
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
England
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Location: England
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BlanchPrez wrote: One thing we all need to remember is that all of this is based on emotions, not facts. To the idea that this is the same as someone winning the lottery and giving the money away, I say it's not the same. We dont form emotional attachments to money (well, I don't, anyway). This would be like someone selling their olympic gold medal. It's not about the money, it's about the sentiment that went into making this team.
I think that if someone wants to sell the team, they shouldn't join in the first place. But, if someone, for whatever reason, feels the need to sell the team, I agree with Tim, people that contribuited should have first right of refusal, and should be the only people it is sold to.
My $.02
Chris
Chris, excellent post, pretty much with you especially the summary above. |
_________________
 Ex-UK NTO,ex- Senior Tourney Co-Ordinator, ex-VP and ex-President....because Lycos says that new members don't know who I was..
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Tim |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 29, 2004 - 04:44 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Germany
Posts: 544
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
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Chris:
100% ack. You expressed my feelings better than i could have done. Thanks!
OMM:
I think setting some basic rules around this issue would be good. I always thought that we could do without, ethics would be sufficient, but opinions like "these are his minis, he can de what he wants, even repaint" prove to me that this is not the case.
That means we need protection from ppl who see it as a lottery. We have to rule out "hey, i enter a 4 Euro miniature and can get a 50 Euro team back" attitude. Maybe the rule i presented (auctioning within the group) is the wrong one, because it still allows business to be made. on the other hand, if we strictly rule out making profit within the group the chances are higher that some weasel will list the team on Ebay. The best thing is that the team would never be sold at all, but i don't think we can outrule that because things happen (unemployment, giving up the hobby, ec.). So the auction would at least make sure that the team ends up in the hands of the guy who is willing to pay most and is most likely not to give the team away again. |
_________________
NAF Regional Tournament Co-Ordinator - Germany
currently somewhere in NAF Ranking ...
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 29, 2004 - 04:57 AM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
England
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Location: England
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I think the Olympic gold analogy is a poorer one than the lottery one. In fact I think it is totally inaccurate. The only people who have Olympic golds won them by being the best in the world, not by putting in a bit of money and a lot of effort and then being the lucky one drawn out of a hat. The Olympic gold represents an outstanding achievement.
I can understand the emotional attachments argument, and sympathise with it, but I find it very unlikely that the team could end up being sold to someone who is not a big BB fan. I think that only someone who truly valued the NAF legacy team for what it is would stump up any money for it. Just as long as it is with someone who treasures it that's ok with me. |
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Mordredd |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 29, 2004 - 05:10 AM
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Joined: Mar 03, 2003
England
Posts: 728
Location: England
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Ethics: moral philosophy or a set of moral principles.
Moral: accepted rules or standards of behaviour, the distinction between right and wrong.
The idea that ethics would suffice was at best naive as what people consider acceptable varies so widely, and there is no widely established code of conduct for the legacy team concept. If you want to impose restrictions above those imposed by law then these need to be made in advance and with the consent and knowledge of all participants.
Quote: "hey, i enter a 4 Euro miniature and can get a 50 Euro team back"
I seriously doubt anyone had that attitude. |
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