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Grumbledook |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
 Posted: Nov 29, 2012 - 06:06 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Posts: 922
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| unfortunately the 0-2 restriction does nothing to hamper woodies and they can happily carry on regardless but it hurts the teams that can usually compete with them |
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scottprime |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 29, 2012 - 10:53 AM
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Joined: Dec 19, 2007
United States of America
Posts: 82
Location: United States of America
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Jonny_P wrote: If you want an eye-opening stats in regards to races and skill options.
Chaos Cup had 80 coaches. Not a single Lizardman team. We had a limit of only two of a certain skill.
ZlurpeeBowl had 60 coaches. 7 Lizardman teams. No limit to how many of a certain skill can be taken.
My opinion and not to rock the boat.
I think that what is stated above is just happenstance. Sure someone might have said they couldn't do well with the current Tournament build with Lizardmen BUT don't forgot it was promoted that the Chaos Teams (Pact, Underworld, Chaos and Nurgle) would get a special giveaway for playing these teams, plus the last round mutation bonus.
I know many people brought some of those teams to go along with the theme and the bonus giveaway. So maybe they passed on a Lizardmen Team for a Chaos, I know Kilowoggy before the event even started said he was bringing lizardmen the following year if he can get them painted in time.
Look at Chaos Cup 2010, there was no Chaos Pact, Ogre, Pro Elf, or Halfling teams with only 34 people. 4 teams only not represented.
Look at Chaos Cup 2011, there was no Underworld, Slann, Vampire, High Elf, Pro Elf, Khemri, Lizardman and Ogre teams with 56 people. More people less teams played. 8 teams only not represented.
Now look at Chaos Cup 2012, just no Lizardman with 80. Despite the higher numbers I would say you did a great job getting people to try the Chaos team and people ventured out on there own to play something different. 1 team not represented.
I would not look at CC 2012 with no Lizardmen teams as a sore spot, I would look at how much better it got and what you did as the TO to try and get people to play a Chaos themed team. Its the highest stakes tournament in the US and to have so many team represented is amazing.
A top tier 1 team will always be a good tier 1 team, IMO and I don't play as many tournaments as others. But in BB the teams do not start the same, thus through improvements they most likely will not and never be the same. There is a reason that there is a pocket of teams that win the whole thing most of the time, they are just better teams to begin with.
Its not the tournament rules its the game we play.
CC 2012 with 80 players and all but one team represented is a HUGE success Jonny P be proud you. |
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Xtreme |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 29, 2012 - 12:27 PM
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Da Boss
Joined: Mar 12, 2003
United States of America
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Grumbledook wrote: unfortunately the 0-2 restriction does nothing to hamper woodies and they can happily carry on regardless but it hurts the teams that can usually compete with them
Agreed, I would also add Undead to that statement.
So the top two races in tournament play according to NAF stats every year aren't affected at all by a 0-2 cap. But the teams that could compete with them are. So with fewer races around to compete with they get pushed further to the top. |
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Daggers |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 29, 2012 - 01:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
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The other aspect of the skills pack that people are slightly overlooking is you get only 5 reg as well. This hopefully will make skill selection a little more difficult. So yes, Undead might be okay, but no mummies with Block still makes the somewhat vulnerable. And tier 2 and 3 teams gets additional bonuses as well. But anyways, its interesting to read, but I will leave judgement until after the tournament to see if it makes a difference and see what races show up.
But yes, when you have 80 coaches there is pretty good chance you will have most races played just by sheer numbers. So comparing it to previous years is somewhat difficuly because it has its own ruleset and bonuses. Another year or two with similar numbers will be a good indicator more than just one. But the fact that many races were represented is always a good thing. I don't mind playing against Orc, Dwarf & Norse, but it is nice to play some other teams as well (especially since I am usually playing halflings). But I will win either way, so thats beside the point. ;P |
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Daggers |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 29, 2012 - 01:04 PM
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Joined: Dec 07, 2006
Canada
Posts: 1618
Location: Canada
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generaljason wrote:
Off topic: check out this thread in our forum and see if it's accurate Mark. You'd know more about the tournaments back East then I would - all the info I didn't know I got from the NAF site:
http://www.thunderbowl.ca/forum/index.php/topic,1948.0.html
Most of it looked good, there were one or two that seemed off. But I will double check to make sure games weren't missed or something, of my memory is off. |
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Check out NAFCANADA.ca for the latest tournaments in Canada.
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dode74 |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 29, 2012 - 01:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 03, 2012
Posts: 102
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Xtreme wrote: Grumbledook wrote: unfortunately the 0-2 restriction does nothing to hamper woodies and they can happily carry on regardless but it hurts the teams that can usually compete with them
Agreed, I would also add Undead to that statement.
So the top two races in tournament play according to NAF stats every year aren't affected at all by a 0-2 cap. But the teams that could compete with them are. So with fewer races around to compete with they get pushed further to the top. |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Nov 30, 2012 - 11:23 PM
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Joined: May 19, 2010
Posts: 110
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dode74 wrote: Xtreme wrote: Grumbledook wrote: unfortunately the 0-2 restriction does nothing to hamper woodies and they can happily carry on regardless but it hurts the teams that can usually compete with them
Agreed, I would also add Undead to that statement.
So the top two races in tournament play according to NAF stats every year aren't affected at all by a 0-2 cap. But the teams that could compete with them are. So with fewer races around to compete with they get pushed further to the top. Is there an easy way to get at those stats? All I see are rankings, and that's not a vast amount of use to me tbh.
Do you mean race results broken down by rule sets? |
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dode74 |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Dec 01, 2012 - 01:55 AM
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Joined: Jan 03, 2012
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| Yes. Darkson has pointed me in the right direction, thanks. |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Dec 03, 2012 - 11:43 AM
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Joined: May 19, 2010
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Where did he point you to? I don't think we have any metadata about rules variations per tourny besides a TV limit.
It's likely a significant sample is harder (or nigh impossible) to find when you consider that many tournies don't just use custom skill rules, but also custom stars and rosters too. Both NAF's DB and even Doubleskull's results contain many outliers that would need to be controlled for. |
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dode74 |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Dec 03, 2012 - 01:24 PM
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He pointed me at the "statistics" link on the ranking page.
You are right, of course, about the sample being full of house rules, but I think we can agree that the sample is representative of all the NAF approved house rules. Of course, with no idea what those rules were we can't really apply a "fix". |
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Jonny_P |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Dec 03, 2012 - 08:18 PM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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Posts: 899
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fatfinley wrote:
CC 2012 with 80 players and all but one team represented is a HUGE success Jonny P be proud you.
Thanks for the kind words, but I just used lizardmen as an example because they are always around.
And I wish your above statement was true, but CC2012 didn't see Ogre, Pro Elf, and Vampire either!
I truly believe the lack of Lizardmen at CC2012 was not coincidence. People play the team they want, but they also look at the rule set before deciding. You can't tell me that a limiting set of choices won't possibly change someone's mind.
I'm leaning toward 0-4 of each skill and up to 0-2 players can have a skill for Chaos Cup 2013. At this point in my experience, it appears to be the best compromise. Just my opinion. |
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Kilowoggy |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Dec 03, 2012 - 09:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 09, 2007
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I haven't played many tournies, but it seems to me that Lizards, Ogre, Vamps, and Pro Elf tend to be teams that people take for fun. None of them are that competitive unless the rules make them so.
There's a number of people that will play "Fun" teams. Those people will normally flow evenly between the lesser races. However, when a tournament rewards people for playing a specifc type of fun team, then they flow more towards those teams than the others.
So, if there's 10 "fun" coaches, then at a regular tournament, they'll take whatever they have fun with or haven't played in a while or whatever.
But, when you have a Nurgle based one or a Goblin based one or a Halfling based one or something, those same 10 will focus on that one team type and now an even small subset of an already small subset of coaches will be going to the other "fun" teams.
That's how I see it.
I took humans, but i thought about taking Nurgle because of the theme. I ended up not doing it because my human team is Chicago Bears based. That's my own weirdness telling me what to pick.
I'm taking Lizardmen this year because I've wanted a team for a while and have never played them and want to paint them. Doesn't matter what the ruleset is, I'll be taking Lizards just for the fun of it.
Hopefully that all makes sense. It's late and I've had waaaaaaaay too much chocolate milk.
JK... I wish I had chocolate milk...
mmmmm.... chocolate milk... |
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babass |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Dec 04, 2012 - 04:49 AM
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Joined: Nov 29, 2010
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Lizards is one of the most efficiant roster in the most common tournament-ruleset (TV110+5skills)
And you could see in the last Euro results, that it was the most efficiant roster !
Concerning the Pro Elves, it is most of the time the most efficiant roster of the Tier2.
it's really strange to see Lizards and elves on the same level as ogres and vampires |
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SolarFlare |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Dec 07, 2012 - 09:47 AM
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Joined: Nov 24, 2004
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Very interesting discussion. Good facts fatfinley.
So, am I to understand there were no lizards at CC in 2011 or 2012? I believe they used essentially identical rules sets. So, that would mean zero lizards out of (56 +80) 136!!! That is fairly remarkable, in my opinion. Given the apparent popularity of lizards in other recent tourneys in the same area, it does not seem coincidental to me. |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Races by tiers
Posted: Dec 07, 2012 - 10:41 AM
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Joined: May 19, 2010
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dode74 wrote: He pointed me at the "statistics" link on the ranking page.
You are right, of course, about the sample being full of house rules, but I think we can agree that the sample is representative of all the NAF approved house rules. Of course, with no idea what those rules were we can't really apply a "fix".
Well, you could import each Tourny into your dataset and manually add rule set meta-data to sort it all out for your regressions. 
You might just be better off limiting results to big tournaments with reliably consistent rule sets, i.e. NAFC and similar "by the book" events with lots of out-of-town attendance. I stress the latter part too because frankly isolated local tourny data is so easily skewed by one or two good coaches. In something like the NAFC, outliers such as great coaches and even shtick coaches (i.e. the all hobgoblin team!) are better absorbed.
It's tough Dode. I too would like to crunch the numbers and get better resolution on team strength (i.e. how do tier 1 teams played by coaches with winning records fair?). But most tourny data are simply apples to oranges due to the lack of any standard ruleset. Most anecdotal conclusions about team power are probably accurate... But we will never know the margin of accuracy or deviation unless there's one rule platform--and I doubt NAF has the desire to put the genie back in the bottle on that one.  |
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