NAF Logo
leftstar Apr 16, 2024 - 02:45 PM
capleft
spacer
NAF World Headquarters
home forum rankings tourneys nyleague faq
Nuffle hates you. rightstar
capright

Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Printable version Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Author Message
kikurasisOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 19, 2013 - 09:50 AM



Joined: Jan 05, 2011
Canada
Posts: 42
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
But, where do you play your home league? Wink

Thanks Craig, answered my question. Smile
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
GaixoOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 19, 2013 - 10:35 AM
Former President


Joined: May 08, 2009
United States of America
Posts: 811
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
      generaljason wrote:

You need to show your work. Just like any algebraic equation where the final answer was realized after many steps, you can't just produce the answer - you need to show how you came about that answer. We demand that even after a 6-game resurrection tournament, but with teams that maybe have played 50 games and have a ST4 AG5 Wardancer to boot, of course online records of how that came about would have to be produced otherwise it's way too open to abuse.

Also we will need something to extract. And this is also the first iteration. If after such time there is a NAF program that's easier for all the paper and penners still out there to use after, then this requirement may not be an issue later. But for now it is. The only way I or anybody else can see someone's league other than line of sight is from their computer.

I guess I don't see why information that is plugged into an online program is any less open to abuse than that which is not. The threat of collusion or corruption still exists, and is probably unavoidable in a project like this. The same is true with tournaments; if someone really wants to fix results for some reason, they could. It's also worth noting that NAF tournaments don't require the use of SCORE.

But I see how it's easier to make use of existing programs rather than adding a manual input to the NAF site. I'll email you with some more specific concerns regarding conversion.

      Quote:

What downgrade are you referring to? And why would you imply that anybody's league is boring if they don't play with house rules? That's like saying every other game on the planet that doesn't employ house rules is boring.

Well, perhaps I can follow my own advice and recognize that the way my league does things is not for everyone. In a very long-running league, I think that adding elements can improve coaches' enjoyment of the season and serve as a recruiting tool, but perhaps that is not for everyone (and doesn't need to be debated here, regardless).

      Quote:

We all know what a house rule is.

I wasn't being facetious. Eliminating IP was a major sticking point for a couple of my coaches, who felt that it was an important aspect of the game. I take it that this change wouldn't constitute a house rule? How about bounties? Those are pretty commonplace, in my experience, but only serve to (potentially) change certain coaches' mindsets as opposed to affecting play on the field.

I'm not playing devil's advocate or trying to disrupt your plan; my main point here is that "house rules" need to be clearly defined if they're going to affect the division of results.

      Quote:

It's not my standard but a NAF one. As you point out open formats are presented in the rulebook. These rules in the LRB 6 are interchangeable when talking about leagues and tournaments, both on pg. 24 and 31. Yet NAF tournaments are never set up as open tournaments - they are scheduled, they are round robin, they are swiss, they are random, but they are never ever open. I, nor my league created that standard - it's the NAF tournament standard. So logically when classifying a standard of League play for NAF wouldn't you consider the tournament standard as the ideal one?

I'm not advocating equality between open and scheduled leagues. If anything, my point is that open leagues are going to produce results that are more skewed than in those with a few house rules.

      Quote:
Perhaps Gold, Silver and Bronze are too iconic. The Silver and Bronze classifications are only viewed as lesser if you consider winning a Silver or Bronze as some sort of tragedy which I don't.

I think the nomenclature is my main objection here (let me suggest mithril, vorpal, and unicorn hide). BUT, I also think that you should consider splitting the "house rule" group into schedule and open divisions. Open leagues are just so different from those that are scheduled, and I think that makes much more difference than a few house rules.

      Quote:

If you have anymore concerns Nate please feel free to post again. Like I said we are trying to be as inclusive as possible, and we want commissioners to submit their leagues, but without an online presence what are we looking at?

As mentioned above, I'll email you about the prospect of modernizing my league.
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
generaljasonOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 19, 2013 - 10:37 AM



Joined: Dec 04, 2009
British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 439
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Status: Offline
      Kilowog1 wrote:
      sann0638 wrote:
      Quote:
Like I said we are trying to be as inclusive as possible, and we want commissioners to submit their leagues, but without an online presence what are we looking at?


This is kind of what I was referring to - I think that a handful of guys playing games and recording on paper should be registered in a NAF database somewhere as a league, such that a new BB player can find those guys and join in. This is before anything complicated like "NAF sanctioning" of leagues. As inclusive as possible, absolutely.
.


+1 to this for sure.
Our home league should be included in a registry at least if we choose to promote it.
Or the store leagues that don't have online presences.


The NAF already has a registry for Leagues:
http://member.thenaf.net/index.php?module=Web_Links

It does lack a specific forum for it though.

Nobody is stopping anybody from advertising their league to possible new members here. NAF at present does not have a league-only board. Once the techs sort out my access I'll set up a board on here so commissioners can start adding their leagues with a thread. But they can still add their League to the existing BB League Links for this purpose as well.

      Kilowog1 wrote:
To me, that's much more important than ranking.


The whole purposes of this thread is "NAF research in to running a League Rankings system" Part of that research is leagues that can add their data to the research of just how many games we are talking about that exist prior to the live date - LRB 5/6 on, globally. Since this thread has started I've have received numerous pms from commissioners with links to their OBBLM databases, how many players they have, what rules they use, ect.

Once I can start adding these to a new public thread we can start getting a better idea of how much data we are talking about it. The entire purpose of the project is to research the scope and feasibility at this point and we need data that anybody can look at.

Players adding their clubs to the public registry to advertise their league is great, but not really the purpose of what this particular thread is about.

I will set up a thread in the Leagues board that can walk you through setting up OBBLM for those interested in making the conversion. It's free and it's not hard.

Thanks for your comments Steve,
Craig.
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
generaljasonOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 19, 2013 - 11:39 AM



Joined: Dec 04, 2009
British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 439
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Status: Offline
      Gaixo wrote:

I guess I don't see why information that is plugged into an online program is any less open to abuse than that which is not. The threat of collusion or corruption still exists, and is probably unavoidable in a project like this. The same is true with tournaments; if someone really wants to fix results for some reason, they could. It's also worth noting that NAF tournaments don't require the use of SCORE.


I agree, and we have to trust that we are playing in a global league of adults just like we trust the validity of tournament results. But I put more weight to a letter for example - the act of typing, editing, printing, folding, putting in an envelope, gluing it, adding postage, and walking down the corner to mail it than I would just saying it. It took more effort to show me the work than telling me about it.

One thing I should add is that your league would need to be open to the public. Again this is not my standard but a NAF one - no closed tournaments ie. no closed leagues.

And no you don't need Score to show your tournament results as you can add them directly to the NAF database.

      Gaixo wrote:

But I see how it's easier to make use of existing programs rather than adding a manual input to the NAF site. I'll email you with some more specific concerns regarding conversion.


It's the easiest and cheapest way to do it as we lack software otherwise. League play has so many variables that are absent from Tournament play which is why I'd be in favour of using existing software. I agree that it would require an OBBLM update to merge software, but this would be more feasible than creating a whole new program.

Kavin (warpstone) has given me his opinion on how this could best be done regarding conversion concerns. I'll cc him on your concerns as he'll probably understand the more i.t. related concerns than I will.

      gaixo wrote:

I wasn't being facetious. Eliminating IP was a major sticking point for a couple of my coaches, who felt that it was an important aspect of the game. I take it that this change wouldn't constitute a house rule? How about bounties? Those are pretty commonplace, in my experience, but only serve to (potentially) change certain coaches' mindsets as opposed to affecting play on the field.


I understand and appreciate your candour. Yeah some people really do love IP, but yeah to understand my meaning I wouldn't consider what you do with IP in your league to be a house rule - playing with it or not. A league that outlaws Dwarf teams is a house rule. A revision of Piling On is a house rule. Spps for fouls is a house rule, ect.

Regarding Bounties: If your coaches are making 'real-life' bounties, meaning you'll open up you actual wallet and pay $5 real dollars for a beer for killing a wanted player that isn't a house rule. It doesn't affect the game. Whereas bounties that allow you to pull funds from your teams's treasury in order to put a price on a player's head requires a house rule.

      Gaixo wrote:

I'm not playing devil's advocate or trying to disrupt your plan; my main point here is that "house rules" need to be clearly defined if they're going to affect the division of results.


I'm not trying to be secretive or anything as I agree this needs to be clearly defined, and it will be. But rather than have me come up with it all I first want to set up a Committee that will discuss what exactly will constitute house rules.

      Gaixo wrote:
I'm not advocating equality between open and scheduled leagues. If anything, my point is that open leagues are going to produce results that are more skewed than in those with a few house rules.


Precisely why they need to be separated as they are completely different data pools.

      Gaixo wrote:

I think the nomenclature is my main objection here (let me suggest mithril, vorpal, and unicorn hide).


I'm not married to any of the names, but I think the colours and names are more apropos as to what they are, and add more art possibilities for the guys involved in the presentation. Right now it's just semantics to me.

      Gaixo wrote:
BUT, I also think that you should consider splitting the "house rule" group into schedule and open divisions. Open leagues are just so different from those that are scheduled, and I think that makes much more difference than a few house rules.


Agreed. I have no objections to making further distinction in the Bronze or "house division", with open and scheduled. I would even like to see further distinctions with semi-established house rules, like Plasmoid's Tier One revisions being a separate catagory for example. Reason being as I'd like to see a pure set of global stats for those rules and see what impact they have with a larger scale of data.

      Gaixo wrote:

As mentioned above, I'll email you about the prospect of modernizing my league.


Sounds Good. Thanks Nate. Very Happy My email for everyone here is: thunder-bowl@hotmail.com

Craig.
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
WeeManBigginsOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 20, 2013 - 02:29 AM



Joined: Apr 30, 2008
Undisclosed
Posts: 21
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
Could you confirm that you have to be using OBBLM to participate? If the answer is yes then sadly I will have to rule the HDWSBBL out of this one. We use our own system which we have developed for many years. It works for us and I don't intend to change it. Shame if this is the case.
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
sann0638Offline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 20, 2013 - 05:34 AM
President


Joined: Jul 03, 2006
England
Posts: 1113
Location: England
Status: Offline
      generaljason wrote:

The NAF already has a registry for Leagues:
http://member.thenaf.net/index.php?module=Web_Links


It is virtually unused and full of out of date information. IMO the first job for a league officer should be facilitating an easily accessible, searchable and up to date list of all tabletop BB leagues around the world, ideally with a map like this one:http://www.thenaf.net/tournaments/information/upcoming-tournaments-map/

Anything else is a bonus and should follow after this.

_________________
NAF President 2016-17
Founder of SAWBBL, Wiltshire's BB League @ sawbbl.co.uk
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
GaixoOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 20, 2013 - 09:13 AM
Former President


Joined: May 08, 2009
United States of America
Posts: 811
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
Well, it sounds like Craig already has information on a number of leagues.

If Elyoukey could be convinced to produce a league map that either NAF staff members (or just NAF members, really) could add items to, you could have a pretty strong list in short order.

_________________
National Tournament Organizer, USA
(NAF Tournament Director, 2014-2018; NAF President, 2018-2024)
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
sann0638Offline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 20, 2013 - 10:35 AM
President


Joined: Jul 03, 2006
England
Posts: 1113
Location: England
Status: Offline
From what I understand, the map would be easy but needs a decent database to work from.

_________________
NAF President 2016-17
Founder of SAWBBL, Wiltshire's BB League @ sawbbl.co.uk
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
GaixoOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 20, 2013 - 11:32 AM
Former President


Joined: May 08, 2009
United States of America
Posts: 811
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
So would a revision of the current league listing suffice, or is a whole new database structure required?

I guess I'm really asking if he can just work from a simple list, or if an actual technical database needs to be created.

_________________
National Tournament Organizer, USA
(NAF Tournament Director, 2014-2018; NAF President, 2018-2024)
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
sann0638Offline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 20, 2013 - 11:47 AM
President


Joined: Jul 03, 2006
England
Posts: 1113
Location: England
Status: Offline
Not sure I see the difference?

_________________
NAF President 2016-17
Founder of SAWBBL, Wiltshire's BB League @ sawbbl.co.uk
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
GaixoOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 20, 2013 - 01:41 PM
Former President


Joined: May 08, 2009
United States of America
Posts: 811
Location: United States of America
Status: Offline
PMed, so as not to further derail this thread.

_________________
National Tournament Organizer, USA
(NAF Tournament Director, 2014-2018; NAF President, 2018-2024)
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
generaljasonOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 20, 2013 - 02:33 PM



Joined: Dec 04, 2009
British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 439
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Status: Offline
      WeeManBiggins wrote:
Could you confirm that you have to be using OBBLM to participate? If the answer is yes then sadly I will have to rule the HDWSBBL out of this one. We use our own system which we have developed for many years. It works for us and I don't intend to change it. Shame if this is the case.


It doesn't have to be OBBLM to participate. I'd like it as I think it's easier, but so long as you are using something digital that anybody can look at this would be okay (I say this without looking at it of course). Just something where anybody on here can see how your hypothetical team went 6-2-2 for example, how one of your hypothetical players earned 33 spps, when they received their hypothetical Niggling Injury, ect. We just need people to show their work.

Again this is just for the first stage - how many leagues exist right now that can fit this criteria and how many games are we looking at? If we do achieve the 'second stage' where something is developed where Commissioners can enter their data into something else then we'll be able to include the leagues that don't currently have an online presence.

Either way, whether guys are already using OBBLM or Aros, or not, the ones who don't have an online presence will inevitably need one just like the online presence of Tournament results in order to participate. The only difference is some will be able to join right away while others later. Assuming of course we get past formula.

      sann0638 wrote:
      generaljason wrote:
The NAF already has a registry for Leagues:
http://member.thenaf.net/index.php?module=Web_Links


It is virtually unused and full of out of date information. IMO the first job for a league officer should be facilitating an easily accessible, searchable and up to date list of all tabletop BB leagues around the world, ideally with a map like this one:http://www.thenaf.net/tournaments/information/upcoming-tournaments-map/

Anything else is a bonus and should follow after this.


Mike I'm not denying that the BB League Links can be improved or even replaced. A league only forum on here will go a long way to solving this where guys can list their leagues for other members in their area wishing to join. This can always be improved and it will be.

As far as this thread is concerned: NAF research in to running a League Rankings system, we're looking for leagues that currently have data so we can see if this is feasible. Right now we have no idea of scope and so we're looking to see who presently fits this criteria.

Please understand that by saying that I'm looking for leagues with an online presence this doesn't simultaneously preclude all leagues that don't. With regards to adding their league to the online registry, so that members in the area may wish to join this is still going to be done. The purpose of this particular thread is finding everyone - whether they have data or not. Nobody is being excluded.

Craig.
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
ElyoukeyOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 22, 2013 - 12:13 PM



Joined: Nov 28, 2006
Undisclosed
Posts: 72
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
i jump in this wagon without reading exhaustivelly all wall-text-posts so i may miss some point.
I will just speak about the world league database, as i was asked for because it looks like the tournament map(i will not speak about a world or global league ranking system. )
as i stated to sano and to a someone who sent me an email, it is possible to create a wordpress plugin to create a database and get information manually updated by league comissionar, but my primary concern is about the accuracy of those informations thrue time. i think a automatic devalidation of the entries is required so there is an active action from the league comissionar to update his league year after year. So the users of the database know that the information about the leagues are no more than 1 year old.

To do this we need to set up a cron script and this is a different matter than just adapting the tournament map. So for now i did not produce anything ( also because i am not developping that much those days and because i do prepar for the eurobowl). also i assume i am not the only one with php-fu so maybe there are underground work and i wish if they where that i would be aware of them before launching anything because i would hate to make this development and after learning that it has already been done by someone else.

_________________

Upcoming French tournaments
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
WeeManBigginsOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Sep 24, 2013 - 03:19 AM



Joined: Apr 30, 2008
Undisclosed
Posts: 21
Location: Undisclosed
Status: Offline
      Elyoukey wrote:
i jump in this wagon without reading exhaustivelly all wall-text-posts so i may miss some point.
I will just speak about the world league database, as i was asked for because it looks like the tournament map(i will not speak about a world or global league ranking system. )
as i stated to sano and to a someone who sent me an email, it is possible to create a wordpress plugin to create a database and get information manually updated by league comissionar, but my primary concern is about the accuracy of those informations thrue time. i think a automatic devalidation of the entries is required so there is an active action from the league comissionar to update his league year after year. So the users of the database know that the information about the leagues are no more than 1 year old.

To do this we need to set up a cron script and this is a different matter than just adapting the tournament map. So for now i did not produce anything ( also because i am not developping that much those days and because i do prepar for the eurobowl). also i assume i am not the only one with php-fu so maybe there are underground work and i wish if they where that i would be aware of them before launching anything because i would hate to make this development and after learning that it has already been done by someone else.


Basically what we use. We have a custom built system which uses Wordpress and a massive database. I manually upload results (Normally 7-10 a week, 90-120 a season!) which are viewable to all members, everything including rosters are viewable by every user, there are no members only areas at all. If there are any discrepancies or missing information coaches can inform me or I chase them up. It's worked very well for many years.

Since we can use our system I would be more than willing to assist in this project.
 
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
Reply with quote Back to top
TojurubOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Oct 02, 2013 - 01:18 AM



Joined: Aug 18, 2003
Germany
Posts: 1520
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
I sent you a PM. Our league would also participate in the research.

http://www.bomfur.de/obblm/

_________________
Dwarves rule!!! Especially when they pass!
3rd place Underworld Cup 2003
Swiss Champion 2004
2nd place Royal RumBBL 2015 and White Star Cup 2016
.....and now Ex-Vize-Prez
 
 View user's profile Send private message  
Reply with quote Back to top
Display posts from previous:     
Jump to:  
All times are
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Printable version Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Powered by PNphpBB2 © 2003-2009 The Zafenio Team
Credits