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destro |
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Post subject: a matter of opinion on fumbling the pass...
 Posted: Feb 17, 2003 - 11:06 PM
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Joined: Feb 17, 2003
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does anyone know if the rules guys have clarified the rule about fumbling a pass on a modified one? I know that they have talked about changing the rule to only be in effect when dealing with tackle zones and not pass distance, FA, and very sunny conditions. Have they made the change yet? Does anyone even use the rule as is? It would seem to me that as it stands now, the rule severly hinders passing teams for doing what they are supposed to do best. It would also make it more difficult than it already is for a halfling or goblin to be thrown gracelessly through the air which I personally love to see the joy/pain of players who try.
I know that in the rulebook it is considered an extra rule and therefore optional, but does anyone use it or is it discarded and not used by most people? I am interested in peoples interpretation on what is to be made of this rule and how they use it or not.
thanks for listening,
destro |
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McSnaga |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 18, 2003 - 01:59 AM
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Joined: Feb 12, 2003
England
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Location: England
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| I use it. If you know the rule, then you tend to use shorter passes (until you have strong arm and/or accurate. It's a game mechanic - High AG passing teams generally score more than others. With this rule they tend to make less long bombs. |
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Grumbledook |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 18, 2003 - 07:23 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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| No its still the same you fumble on a modified 1 |
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Jon
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spindex |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 18, 2003 - 10:44 AM
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I like the rule of a rolling either a natural one or 1 or les after mods this makes it harder to throw the ball to the other side of the field and useing high speed to get there first. (you still can use this tactic just more risky)
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spindex |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 18, 2003 - 10:44 AM
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I like the rule of a rolling either a natural one or 1 or les after mods this makes it harder to throw the ball to the other side of the field and useing high speed to get there first. (you still can use this tactic just more risky)
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destro |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 19, 2003 - 12:05 AM
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I guess what my biggest problem with the rule is that a person in the open field in no tackle zone trying to throw a long bomb will fumble the ball half the time, 1-3 on the dice. it just doesn't seem to make that much sense to me that a player would fumble the ball to an adjacent square for trying to throw the ball farther, you would think the pass more likely to be innaccurate, not a fumble. I can see how tackle zones and pouring rain would affect the fumble of the ball but not distance. with the rule as is, a troll is most likely going to fumble a thrown goblin and he cannot use team rerolls or gain passing skills to decrease his odds of failure which in my opinion, ruins the reason anyone plays goblins in the first place. if an agility four player makes a long bomb attempt in no tackle zone, a roll of 5-6 is a success, 4 innaccurate, and 1-3 a fumble. If you add one tackle zone to the equation, the player can only succeed or fumble. does it seem right that an agility 4 player is going to fumble more than he will be innaccurate or succeed? Especially since someone with hail mary pass who can throw the ball to anywhere on the board only fumbles on a one no matter how many tackle zones are applied (does that seem right?).
granted this is only dealing with long bomb attempts which I rarely see in a game anyways, and I have not seen anyone attempt to throw the ball down field and try to race for the ball, most players I game with don't leave themselves that open to be exploited in such a way. it just seems to me that an action that can only be done once a turn can be that erradict just because you try to throw the ball farther.
thanks for listening,
destro |
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Squiggoth |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 19, 2003 - 03:44 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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| I think along the same line - somehow when an Ogre tries to throw a Goblin a short distance the Goblin is likely to be thrown inaccurate and scatter, but when the Ogre tries to throw him a long distance he'll just drop the Goblin. That doesn't make any sense to me, even if it is true... |
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Deathwing |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 19, 2003 - 05:03 AM
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Former President
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It's a game mechanic. Forget 'real world' logic, we're talking about a fantasy game with little metal players. It doesn't make any sense that
everybody else stands still while each player takes an action in turn either. 
Without it a GR or any Elf that gets an AG becomes a devastating long range passer. That kind of makes a mockery of specialist Thrower positions and throwing skills. To Pass the ball with any degree of success it's only right that you need Strong Arm, Pass, Accurate. |
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Squiggoth |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 19, 2003 - 06:18 AM
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I now it makes sense on behalf of game mechanics, it's just that Goblins tend to break rather easily when thrown...  |
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The only coach worse than Dick Advocaat
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destro |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 19, 2003 - 12:26 PM
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actually I am refering to game mechanics, not real world situations. If a GR or any elf gets an agility bonus like you stated, his chance of fumble on a long bomb does not decrease, it is still 1-3. therefore he is no better off in terms of fumbling, instead his passes will either always be accurate or they will always fumble since 1-3 is fumble and 4-6 is success on long bomb attempts with AG5. that just doesn't make sense.
I agree that specialist throwers are important, and with the skills that they can get they can become the best throwers in the game. but what about a troll or ogre? they can't get passing skills, how are they to get any better? I play goblins on occasion and the only way for them to score on most teams is for one lucky gobbo to be chucked as far as possible with the ball away from the enemy. that is less likely to happen now. and as for elven teams, when starting a league, most elven teams cannot afford to start with a thrower if they want rerolls or are willing to sacrifice something else, and no other elf can get passing skills. that sets those teams behind others in terms of gaining momentum in the league.
A high agility does not let you reroll any attempt, that is where skills have there value. in game terms, a high agility player is going to fumble just as equally as any other player on any pass attempt. only if he has passing skills which most players cannot get will he be able to alter his chances. as the rule stands now there are going to be more fumbled pass attempts then innaccurate ones. that seems unbalanced to me. |
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skummy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 19, 2003 - 12:39 PM
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Quote:
but what about a troll or ogre? they can't get passing skills, how are they to get any better?
Pro is a good skill for a big guy if he's going to be chucking a lot of gobbos. Pass is another useful skill you can get him on doubles. The throw teammate and passing skills are intentionally a bit difficult at long range because they aren't meant to be reliably used very often.
You only wind up with more fumbles than actual passes if your team is trying to pass further than quick or short range. Most teams can't depend on doing this very reliably at all. |
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Deathwing |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 19, 2003 - 01:08 PM
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Former President
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destro wrote: actually I am refering to game mechanics, not real world situations. If a GR or any elf gets an agility bonus like you stated, his chance of fumble on a long bomb does not decrease, it is still 1-3. therefore he is no better off in terms of fumbling, instead his passes will either always be accurate or they will always fumble since 1-3 is fumble and 4-6 is success on long bomb attempts with AG5. that just doesn't make sense.
Obviously I wasn't clear.
Currently, yes. An AG5 player fumbles a Long Bomb on a 1-3.
Without the modified 1 is a fumble rule, an AG5 player will be still be accurate on a 4+, but on a 2 or 3 he's gonna be inaccurate rather than fumbling as the rule stands now. So while it doesn't increase his chance of being accurate, it still makes him a whole lot better at throwing the football in that it lessens the inherent risk. It does the same for every Joe Bloggs lineman in the game in fact.
And yes, it has all kinds of implications for TTM, it'd make it far too easy!
We had quite an in-depth discussion on this a while back on TBB, I'll see if I can find the thread and post the link. |
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Ex-UK NTO,ex- Senior Tourney Co-Ordinator, ex-VP and ex-President....because Lycos says that new members don't know who I was..
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skummy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 19, 2003 - 01:19 PM
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Quote:
We had quite an in-depth discussion on this a while back on TBB, I'll see if I can find the thread and post the link.
I believe you can also see my progression from hard core "only fumble on a 1" to my current stance in these threads as well.  I think they were started by xynok, but I can't remember the titles of them. |
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destro |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 19, 2003 - 02:26 PM
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I would like to see the thread if you find it. I am always glad to hear a different view point, it lets me know that people really care about a particular game. I dont want to come off like a pushy jerk or anything, I am new to the forum medium and just like to discuss rules and what not. sometimes people have differing viewpoints based on the teams they play. I play mostly humans, goblins and am starting to learn wood elves and dwarves, maybe that is a factor in my stance on the rule.
my only real beef with the fumbled pass rule is distance thrown being a factor in causing a fumble, other than that I like the rule. makes things more gritty.
thanks for putting up with my crap,
destro |
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skummy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 19, 2003 - 03:14 PM
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Ah, I found it - and I don't think you're giving anyone crap. The range problem used to be a big factor for me as well, but the deciding factor was the effect the rules had on Throw Teammate. Fumbling only on a "1" there was just a little too powerful, especially when 4 agility goblins are introduced.
http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3621&highlight=
I think you'll find a lot of reading here. For one thing, Deathwing was helping out a pair of newbies  at the time, and gave them some additional links to look over. |
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