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ZanzerTem |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Mar 03, 2003 - 12:36 PM
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Joined: Feb 14, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 98
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I'm glad to see that there is an issue with Big Guys and Mummies with Pile On (because they have Mighty Blow). No need for me to learn how to use ANOTHER BBowl program.
How to fix it though? If it is ruled that Khemri mummies get FA instead of MB, what about Big Guys? Undead Mummies? Beast of Nurgle? <shiver>
Just ONE STR 4+ person with Pile On and Mighty Blow is a casualty factory. |
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Blood
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 05, 2003 - 05:07 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Mar 05, 2003
Undisclosed
Posts: 2627
Location: Kent, UK
Status: Offline
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Just to add my 2p. At the TBB I played a game against 2 PO mummies with my Orcs. I finished the game with 4 orcs on the pitch - and he hadn't rolled particularlly good injury rolls. I had exactly the same experience against JJBs Undead in a practice game. It shouldn't really be possible with a couple of skills to reduce an Orc team to so much mush. PO is broken and needs fixing.
As to the fix going prone before Av roll means mummies etc spend nearly twice as much time on the deck - if they PO all the time and this although leaving the skill a good one for high Strength players at least gives you more opportunity to avoid getting hit.
Making it a foul or moving the IGMEOY marker is just a patch - fix the problem rather than creating a new layer of rules.
Making it a trait, although appealing, means lucky strength teams will still have casualty monsters.
I think the Khemri issue is separate - both PO and Khemri need their own fix. At the moment PO is by far the best strength skill for any S4 player. |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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skummy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 05, 2003 - 07:42 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Quote:
Just to add my 2p. At the TBB I played a game against 2 PO mummies with my Orcs. I finished the game with 4 orcs on the pitch - and he hadn't rolled particularlly good injury rolls. I had exactly the same experience against JJBs Undead in a practice game. It shouldn't really be possible with a couple of skills to reduce an Orc team to so much mush. PO is broken and needs fixing.
Thank you! I had that exact same experience in the first game of my league's Spike! bowl regular season. Damned Undead took me down to three orcs on the pitch by the end of the game, and I was reduced to trying to dodge Black Orcs away from Piling On Mummies becasue at least if I fell down I wouldn't get Piled On. |
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The only thing to do with good advice is pass it on. It is never any use to oneself.
-Oscar Wilde
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ZanzerTem |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 05, 2003 - 08:16 AM
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Joined: Feb 14, 2003
United States of America
Posts: 98
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Seems like everyone is seeing the same results.
One note though.... Ian said that if Pile On is a trait, then the lucky Mummy or Big Guy would still have a casualty machine. Well, the same applies to the reverse.....The lucky Skaven/Wood Elf/Lizardman coach can develop a one turn scorer, something that in itself is extremely annoying and powerful.
I still stick with the idea of either making it a trait or only giving 1/2 Str bonus, rounded either up or down. |
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Blood
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freckles |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 05, 2003 - 02:33 PM
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Joined: Feb 17, 2003
Australia
Posts: 57
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I have brought this issue up with Babs and he assures me that Piling On will be looked at by the BBRC this year, as the skill is most assuredly broken. So, I have house ruled the use of Piling On at the con that I am running in May (see Leviathan under Tourneys). Re: doubleskulls and skummy... I agree that any skill that can reduce an Orc team to 3/4 players is outrageous and is in desperate need of some urgent repairs!
Cheers! |
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Emma
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Apedog |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 05, 2003 - 04:22 PM
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Joined: Feb 17, 2003
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I agree Piling On needs changing (and the Khemri as well) but I would not like too see it made a trait as there are too few Strength skills as is. If we are going to start making them traits then we need to introduce a few more skills and thats a whole new can of worms.
Also if we make Piling On a 'trait' we are going to have to change the term used, it's hardly a trait is it. |
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Munkey
Boom! He's on his back!
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Milo |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 07, 2003 - 10:49 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Switzerland
Posts: 127
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
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ApeDog -- It's true it may not fit the "fluff" of a trait, but the split between traits and skills is ultimately a game mechanic, and if that game mechanic can be used to limit access to an unbalancing skill, I have no problems with it.
It's true that the BBRC will be discussing this during this years' review. In the meantime, I encourage you to either make it a trait in your league OR return it to the pre-roll ability it was prior to the last Rules Review. I'll note that this skill has been around a long time -- Mummies always could get it -- and it has only been with the most recent review and the ability to apply it after the dice roll has been made that complaints have arisen. I think a rollback of this skill may be the ultimate fix.
For those of you being abused by these players, I heartily recommend a good dose of Dirty Player to their sensitive regions while they stare at the sky. That's what it's there for. |
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Milo
Ex-BBRC Goon
Commish at Large
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Apedog |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 07, 2003 - 12:23 PM
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Milo, It was only really an afterthought that Piliing On does not fit a traits fluff. I agree that the whole traits thing is only a rules mechanic, but i've seen discussions about this come up on the boards a couple of times. It's a bit like the aging is stupid because Elves live for years argument. Really it's just wordplay but it is a (minor) consideration.
Of more concern to me is that ST skills are relatively few and I think it would restrict choices too much to limit them further. |
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Munkey
Boom! He's on his back!
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 07, 2003 - 12:26 PM
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da Veiz-Prez
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Netherlands
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Location: Netherlands
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Apedog |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 07, 2003 - 12:27 PM
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Sorry for the second post but, making a broken skill rarer also does not solve the problem but just makes it occur less.
Imagine a skill that let me win every game instantly but only could be obtained on 0.01% of skill rolls, you wouldn't let this skill in the game for obvious reasons despite it's rarity.
In my opinion traits only solve the problem where the skill was a problem when everyone had it but not if only a few players do. If the skill genuinely is broken (making no judgements here) then just making it a trait does not necessarily stop it being so. |
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Munkey
Boom! He's on his back!
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skummy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 10, 2003 - 08:17 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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| Milo: We've got an Undead team in our league with 2 piling on Mummies and 2 Dirty Player Zombies. If you foul the Mummies, he's only too happy to go after the rest of your team with the DP's and no Ref watching. Of course, the first person he'll try to Pile On is your own Dirty Player... |
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The only thing to do with good advice is pass it on. It is never any use to oneself.
-Oscar Wilde
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 10, 2003 - 08:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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Posts: 2319
Location: United States of America
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skummy wrote: Milo: We've got an Undead team in our league with 2 piling on Mummies and 2 Dirty Player Zombies. If you foul the Mummies, he's only too happy to go after the rest of your team with the DP's and no Ref watching. Of course, the first person he'll try to Pile On is your own Dirty Player...
That's good coaching!
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skummy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 10, 2003 - 09:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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| Oh, he's a very good coach. I managed to beat him in our leagues Blood Bowl final and outcasualty him 4-0, though. |
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The only thing to do with good advice is pass it on. It is never any use to oneself.
-Oscar Wilde
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 10, 2003 - 10:58 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
United States of America
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Milo wrote: I'll note that this skill has been around a long time -- Mummies always could get it -- and it has only been with the most recent review and the ability to apply it after the dice roll has been made that complaints have arisen. I think a rollback of this skill may be the ultimate fix.
Seriously Milo ... rolling this skill back would be a very simple solution to a new problem as you mentioned. One I can heartily agree with. I don't like the ST trait solution because unless you are playing the MBBL2, there just aren't that many ST skill in the first place.
So yes, you have my vote for change Piling On back to being declared before the AV roll and OH just so that it doens't get lumped in ... PLEASE leave Diving Tackle after the dice roll ... (its a good skill with that wording ... a marginal skill at best otherwise).
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Tysonium |
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Post subject: Piling On
Posted: Mar 10, 2003 - 11:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 18, 2003
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It may be that I just don't like rules exceptions, but I think that all skills should be usable after the die roll. It keeps things much simpler, and provides much less haggle bait for rules lawyers.
My suggestion for Pile On would be a flat +3 to armor roll, go prone, roll before or after skill use. The skill becomes slightly more useful for ST 2 players, slightly less for ST 4+, but is still valuable.
Any thoughts?
Tyson |
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