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skummy |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Mar 10, 2003 - 12:52 PM
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Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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Galak & Milo: Declaring before the roll is a solution, but is it the best one? Making an exception for just one skill is not appealing, and with the revised fouling rules PO would still be an automatic first skill for Mummies and Big Guys.
Earlier in the thread I proposed making the armor bonus for Piling On 1/2 the player's strength, rounded up. My reasoning was much the same as Tysonium's, except that I believe Big Guys and Mummies should should do more damage than an average player. |
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The only thing to do with good advice is pass it on. It is never any use to oneself.
-Oscar Wilde
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 10, 2003 - 01:07 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
Joined: Feb 11, 2003
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skummy wrote: Galak & Milo: Declaring before the roll is a solution, but is it the best one? Making an exception for just one skill is not appealing
Actually you have to use Pass Block before the Pass roll. So it would not be the only exception.
Quote: and with the revised fouling rules PO would still be an automatic first skill for Mummies and Big Guys.
I greatly disagree ... this wasn't the case in 3rd and yes, I know it had more agressive fouling, but before the AV roll you have a good chance of being prone a lot more than (about 45% more) than when the roll is after ... Block is looking a lot better to me at that point. Is it an automatic as it is now ... yup ... will it be if moved to BEFORE ... don't think so. Oh, and all my Big Guys on any team I've played get Pro as their first skill ... not Piling On even with the current rules.
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Bevan |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 11, 2003 - 12:07 AM
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Joined: Feb 13, 2003
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GalakStarscraper wrote: skummy wrote: Galak & Milo: Declaring before the roll is a solution, but is it the best one? Making an exception for just one skill is not appealing
Actually you have to use Pass Block before the Pass roll. So it would not be the only exception.
It would not be an exception if you could not change a player's position after seeing the dice roll, which to me makes far more sense. This would impact on Diving Tackle which is not seen as a highly valuable skill so Diving Tackle would have to change yet again to beef it up a bit. |
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Tysonium |
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Post subject: Piling On
Posted: Mar 11, 2003 - 12:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 18, 2003
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My main reason to keep the bonus a constant was to keep math out of it altogether (yes, I know it's an incredibly simple calculation, but I hate doing even that much  ). With every Big Guy and Mummy starting with Mighty Blow, they are doing more damage than an average player anyway... since the Piling On bonus is greater, Mighty Blow would always apply to injury rolls.
As for the notion that Big Guys should break armor easier than ST 2 stunties, I originally thought about limiting the bonus to the lower of +3 or ST... then I realized it probably shouldn't matter (and was an added complication). While the Big Guy is using his massive bulk against the downed player, the Stunty is using his ability to get into hard-to-reach places to go for that devastating groin smash... 
Tysonium
Quote: Earlier in the thread I proposed making the armor bonus for Piling On 1/2 the player's strength, rounded up. My reasoning was much the same as Tysonium's, except that I believe Big Guys and Mummies should should do more damage than an average player. |
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 11, 2003 - 04:51 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
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Bevan wrote: This would impact on Diving Tackle which is not seen as a highly valuable skill so Diving Tackle would have to change yet again to beef it up a bit.
Beven ... leave DT alone ... dang it I finally like the skill and think it balanced. By the way Zombie pointed out that Dump Off must be done before you see the Block dice, so that another exception. So Dump Off, Pass Block, and Piling On become the exceptions. I can handle that and I think Joe SixPack can too.
Everyone just leave Diving Tackle alone ... I'm in the process of giving it to all the Halflings on my team as I've discovered that I can mix it up pretty well with the bashy teams but not the dodge right through my defenses Elves. Just leave it be.
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skummy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 11, 2003 - 08:59 AM
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| Galak: I agree that DT should be left alone. You bring up a good point with Pass Block, but I still think you are devaluing Piling On. The fear of a Dirty Player foul kept people from Piling On as often. Now that rules have stiffened against the constant fouling, I'm seeing teams use the Piling On to replace the original DT tactic. It is not as effective as 3rd ed. Fouling, but it's still a great way to break armor and with Mighty Blow you've got a very good chance to take the player off the pitch. |
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The only thing to do with good advice is pass it on. It is never any use to oneself.
-Oscar Wilde
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martynq |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 11, 2003 - 10:56 AM
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Joined: Feb 21, 2003
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There does appear to be a problem with PO and a real arms-race going on. One problem is that we cannot all join in - not all teams have access to ST skills unlike with DP in 3rd edition.
Help!
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ZanzerTem |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 11, 2003 - 11:18 AM
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Joined: Feb 14, 2003
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Great, now nothing will change in my league. Hello people! The +5 bonus is the broken area. It is just to high, regardless of if you have to declare it before the AV roll.
Here are how coaches in my league currently use it:
1) ALWAYS declare Pile On -vs- armor, and Mighty Blow to injury.
2) As long as no snake eyes, armor is broke.
3) +1 to injury, GUARANTEED minimum of no action taken by victim next turn.
4) Rinse and repeat until the field is cleared.
Think about it. On average, at least 2 Str5, Mighty Blow people will be dropping opponents every turn. By the end of the 1/2, you figure that the opposing team will have 1/2 of their players off of the field.
Is no one listening to Skummy, Tysonium or myself?? REDUCE THE BONUS!
Problem solved. Far less AV broken, far less casualties, far less CHEESE. |
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GalakStarscraper |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 11, 2003 - 12:37 PM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
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BloodbasherMasher wrote:
4) Rinse and repeat until the field is cleared.
Think about it. On average, at least 2 Str5, Mighty Blow people will be dropping opponents every turn.
I'm sorry I must have missed the part where this was impossible because Prone players have to blitz to rinse and repeat and they are only allowed to do this once a turn and will have to GFI to even try it against an adjacent player. Declared before the AV roll, the Mummies will be prone 100% with every knockdown ... not 45% like it is now ... that's a lot of standing up to have to do with MA 3.
See ... I had Ogre teams in my old 3rd edition league .... 8 ST 5 players with MA 5 ... not 4 ST 5 players with MA 3. Didn't have issue with PoN when it was before the AV roll with that league. Sorry guys ... I have to see the proof in the details before I agree.
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ZanzerTem |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 11, 2003 - 01:31 PM
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| Hmm, hard to make a statistical agruement on paper.....I guess you just have to experience it to believe it. |
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Blood
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Fondu77 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 12, 2003 - 05:32 AM
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.........WHO CARE ..........PILLLLLLING ON.... on everybody
no question asked "before or after"......just Piling on.... to scare opponent |
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tournament rules 137 bis.... drink a glass of vodka for each tuchdown or injurie
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Babs |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 20, 2003 - 05:10 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
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Actually, the concept behind Tysonium's suggestion has already been suggested in a similar format at the BBRC level - but it's (extraordinary)early days.
For what it's worth, I really don't like DT in it's current format. I would not be upset at all if it was changed again, although I am against the concept of 'forever tinker'. Diving Tackle was originally a skill for elven team to prevent being blocked themselves (defensive mechanism). The new DT does exactly the opposite and is a boon to the 'pow' teams.
I'd like to see a new 'old DT' style skill, but that's mytake for another thread.
As to Piling On, I think that the way the skill currently works under LRB was an oversight, and only realised after the rules were out (in particular, the 'apply skill after roll rule')!!!!
A pretty gross oversight really. And we're seeing just how gross in our leagues and tournaments right now.
So I'd say 'house rule' for your life - I would actually recommend against leaving the skill as it stands right now. |
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=-) Babs
Washed up old has been.
Ex-official GW Blood Bowl Rules Committee member
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Co-Author of the Feudball first novel.
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BUD |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 24, 2003 - 11:53 PM
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Joined: Mar 24, 2003
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Well, I believe Piling On is becoming too popular or a skill and would frankly like to see less of it. I don't believe its overpowering but its too common. My solution would be to make it a strength trait... I'm sure that would allow us to see less Piling Ons out there... I'm a Dwarf Player and have 2 Piling On slayers, 1 piling on Ogre and a longbeard so I'm not an elf I'm just thinking in fairness of the game
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Doubleskulls |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 25, 2003 - 02:20 AM
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Ex-Rulz Committee
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Babs wrote: Diving Tackle was originally a skill for elven team to prevent being blocked themselves (defensive mechanism).
But it never was. Under 3rd ed DT was always an AG skill for strength teams - anyone with St 4 or more loved it. DT mummies, drool... |
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
SLOBB
NAF Racial Results
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skummy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 25, 2003 - 07:07 AM
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| Ian: I believe it was intended to be so in the same way that fouling was intended to be an entertaining rule subset in 3rd edition. That is - it was a completely overpowering rule that didn't get tested well enough in playtesting. |
_________________
The only thing to do with good advice is pass it on. It is never any use to oneself.
-Oscar Wilde
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