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destro |
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Post subject: which comes first?
 Posted: Feb 21, 2003 - 12:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 17, 2003
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okay, had an odd issue in a game the other night?
in the rules, when a player enters a square containing the ball he must attempt to pick it up. if he fails then it squibs to an adjacent square. now what if the coach moves his player onto the square with the ball then he is called for illegal procedure. the rules state that his turn ends immediately with no further action, but the pick up the ball rule states that you have to try to pick up the ball.
so which comes first? does the player attempt to pick up the ball before the turnover occurs? or is he denied the roll? is picking up the ball considered an action or is it something like having a bouncing ball come your way where its an automatic thing regardless of whose turn it is? if he is denied the roll, then what happens to the ball? does it squib from where he is since a player can't occupy the same space as an uncontrolled ball? I ruled that he got to pick up the ball since he was already in the square, which he promptly failed and solved the whole thing. but has anyone had this happen before? is there a ruling for this timing issue?
-just curious |
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liviath |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2003 - 01:41 AM
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| This question has always been up to the league commisioners. I think people have taken the "out of time" turnover too far. In our league we just let them finish what they started (in terms of dice rolls). In your example the player should roll to pick up the ball and end your turn. It's a dice roll that takes 1 second. It shouldn't be made into a big deal. |
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McSnaga |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2003 - 03:32 AM
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Joined: Feb 12, 2003
England
Posts: 28
Location: England
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| Equally if a coach's first action is to dodge out of a tackle zone, the die should be rolled to resolve that 1 step and then the turnover happens. That's how I have always seen it played anyway. |
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Grumbledook |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2003 - 06:24 AM
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| Its an illegal proceedure from that point so the ball would just scatter. You can't roll for things after the IP has been called. |
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Jon
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fe2mike |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2003 - 09:25 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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"Its an illegal proceedure from that point so the ball would just scatter. You can't roll for things after the IP has been called."
So then I could possibly get away with a dodge (move the guy, Illegal procedure) then not roll to see if he fails?
We have alwys played you finish whatever action you declared and then your turn is over. Ex Declare blitz, move guy, Illegal procedure, finish moving the guy, all the way, then turnover. |
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destro |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2003 - 09:35 AM
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I like your example on the dodge attempt fe2mike, mind if I use that on some of my more grumpier players?
although I am not sure I would let a guy finish his entire move before the turnover, that could get really complicated if it involved a pass or hand off, or they might run for a touchdown with enough movement. I would be inclined to just let them finish whatever they were doing in that square and then call the turnover. |
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fe2mike |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2003 - 10:19 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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| Not a problem, go ahead and use it . As for letting him finish all the way, I guess that it very rarely happens anyway as must people in my league are normally pretty relaxed about illegal procedures unless they really change the tied of the game. Although we do have that one vicious wood elf player that thinks that just cause he can't afford rerolls that you don't need them either! |
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Iron Mike Green
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Dave |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2003 - 04:05 PM
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da Veiz-Prez
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 895
Location: Netherlands
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| Don't like the turnover rule, so we don't have problems like these |
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Bevan |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2003 - 05:03 PM
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Joined: Feb 13, 2003
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destro wrote:
although I am not sure I would let a guy finish his entire move before the turnover, that could get really complicated if it involved a pass or hand off, or they might run for a touchdown with enough movement. I would be inclined to just let them finish whatever they were doing in that square and then call the turnover.
This raises the important question of whether the player is allowed to carry out any of his action if an illegal procedure is called.
Suppose my player is one square from the endzone with no dodges required. If I just say "OK, I'll score right away.", can I get called on illgeal procedure to prevent the score (since I didn't actually move him). Or if I just push him forward one square, can I be called for IP to prevent the score. Is it an IP as soon as I touch the player, as soon as I declare an action for him, only after he has actually moved, or at the instant the opponent calls out "Illegal procedure".
This gets tricky because I can't be called until I have touched a player or rolled a dice, and if my opponent calls out too soon I get a free reroll. So if I sneakily move my finger up behind the player I can hope my opponent calls out before I give him a quick flick forward to score.
My opinion is that the IP should prevent the action that was being carried out. If the player has been moved from his original position then move him back. This solves all the beardy mucking about I suggested above.  |
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Apedog |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2003 - 05:16 PM
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Just how long is your beard?  |
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Bevan |
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Post subject: Beardy plays
Posted: Feb 22, 2003 - 02:28 PM
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Apedog wrote: Just how long is your beard?
It's longer than you thought. 
Suppose I have a Rat Ogre next to a Treeman and another player needing only one move without dodging to score.
Can I flick the player over the line to score as I suggested previously or can the opponent make me go back and move the Rat Ogre first even though my ball carrier crosses the line before he could blurt out "Illegal Procedure!".
I don't believe IPs were ever intended to allow you to break the rules. So even if the IP call is a bit late you need to go back to the start of the turn, pay a turn counter or suffer a turnover immediately, then make the moves in the right order, but using any rolls made before the IP call.
So in the above case if my player had to dodge to score and the first thing I did was roll the dice for the dodge then my opponenet could call "IP" as I rolled the dice. I would have to pay a turn counter, then make the required Blitz with the Rat Ogre, then if I still hadn't suffered a turnover use the previously rolled dice to make the dodge. |
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Apedog |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 22, 2003 - 04:46 PM
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Sounds entirely fair to me.
I was under the impression that the IP rule was a harsh but effective way of making people move their turn counters along. Later it was co-opted into enforcing wild animal as well and has been extended by some leagues into other rules breaches and mistakes.
Trouble is that the turn counter situation is quite simple, if you are called you lose a re-roll or turnover and move the turn counter up the track. I hope no-one would seriously suggest that extra turns can be gained in this manner 
By extending the IP rule into other rules (eg. WA) uncertainty is created as to exactly what happens. I'm not really sure it's necessary - if so why isn't moving an ogre before rolling for Bonehead an IP. |
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Munkey
Boom! He's on his back!
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Bevan |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 24, 2003 - 02:10 PM
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Apedog wrote: By extending the IP rule into other rules (eg. WA) uncertainty is created as to exactly what happens. I'm not really sure it's necessary - if so why isn't moving an ogre before rolling for Bonehead an IP.
As far as I can tell by scouring the rule books, Illegal Procedure is only used to prevent things happening out of order. e.g. Players moved before turn counter or normal players before WA or Fanatic.
I don't think it is intended to be used to cover other general breaches of the rules such as setting up too many players in the sidelines etc, although house rules sometimes include these items. I don't think it should include failing to roll bonehead any more than it should inlcude moving a player out of a tackle zone then having the opponent point out that you haven't rolled for dodge yet. You just go back and make those rolls as soon as you realise you missed it. |
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Lloyd |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 25, 2003 - 05:15 AM
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Joined: Feb 14, 2003
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This one will cook your noodle.
You're moving a Big Guy before moving your turn counter and you're called for an Illegal Procedure. Big Guys can't use Re-rolls so can you use a Re-roll to stop the turn over?
I know how I'd rule it I just wanted to show how the rules can cause controversy if you aren't forgiving of a games idiosyncrasies and just rule in favour of fair and sensible play. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 25, 2003 - 08:53 AM
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Joined: Feb 10, 2003
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Location: United States of America
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Lloyd wrote: This one will cook your noodle.
You're moving a Big Guy before moving your turn counter and you're called for an Illegal Procedure. Big Guys can't use Re-rolls so can you use a Re-roll to stop the turn over?
I know how I'd rule it I just wanted to show how the rules can cause controversy if you aren't forgiving of a games idiosyncrasies and just rule in favour of fair and sensible play.
The Illegal Procedure call is against the coach and not the Big Guy so I would allow a re-roll to be used for that. |
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